Richard Caldwell's DVD

[prettypony99]

I got this one for me for Christmas and was wondering how many others out there has seen it yet.

[Stringmaster]

I got the Caldwell DVD as well (also Martin Black's new DVD). I watched part of Richard's DVD, and previewed other sections. I think it's well done. It got my mind spinning quite a bit. It would be nice to generate some discussion around the methodology.
DD

[vaquero]

I've seen his video , and been seen him in action . He knows what he is doing , and sure enough is handy . Well worth watching

[prettypony99]

While I thought there was a lot of good information in Richard's DVD, I thought the best part was him working his horse in the beginning. It was interesting to hear his reason behind his theories and methods. I question his being a buckaroo for 30 yrs. Not wanting to snipe, but 12 yrs ago, he was a farrier in Idaho which is why his back is so bad now. He did spend time with Teddy Robinson doing snaffle bit horses, but a buckaroo for 30 yrs? Not sure about that one.

[vaquero]

He did shoe horses with Ted Robinson , and spent some time riding with him . He did shoe some in Alturas , but he doesn't anymore-he does clinics . I don't know if that ruined his back , but he had a horse roll on him during a show . He had back surgery , and 6 weeks later he was roping at the Californios . I know his whole back deal , as his wife told me as we were watching him rope at a riata roping . I won't give details , as I'm not sure how much he has said publicly . I will tell you it's not a good deal , and he is lucky to be riding as well as he does . I thought he had some good information in the video , and I learned some things . He is supposed to be working on a training video , I'm not sure when it will be out .

[prettypony99]

I saw him roping at the Californios after his back surgery. It was really great when he had his horse lie down so he could get back in the saddle during the 3 man team roping(?). Very nice! Looking forward to the next in the DVD series, too.

So maybe you know where he spent 30 yrs. buckaroo'ing? I know he was on the MC with his buddy, Blackie, but what other ranches did Richard buckaroo on?

[alanbell]

Are you saying that because he worked as a farrier that excludes him from making bridle horses, working cattle and big loop roping? Or does a person have to spend EVERY minute working for a big outfit to be a "Buckaroo" and if he is working his own small herd of horses and cattle he is not a "Buckaroo" to your standard? Or if he has spent 30 yrs learning and perfecting his craft but did it sometimes on a big outfit and others on small outfits and sometimes on his own that the only time that actually counts towards his "Buckaroo" resume is the time on big outfits and the rest is just time spent with horses by your accounting? Or if a person spent time shoeing other folks horses for pay while he was Buckarooing then how could he be considered a Buckaroo because he spent that bit of time shoeing NOT Buckarooing to your standard? I guess it would just be easier to ask what is your standard to qualify as a "Buckaroo" and then I'd kinda be interested in how you came to what ever conclusion you have? Not wanting to snipe either but you kinda opened this can.
Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

[reata]

Not wanting to snipe either but you kinda opened this can.
Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell
Not wanting to snipe?? I think you did a pretty good job..And also a real nice job of putting words into peoples mouths!!
Not every body has the opinion that Richard is the messiah and every body is entitled to their opinion..
That's what I thought anyways!! :)

[alanbell]

I guess you missed all those question marks after each sentence. I didn't put words into anyone's' mouth. I don't think that Richard Caldwell is the second coming either I am just curious as to what is the criteria! Sorry if your upset! I thought I was asking Prettypony99 the questions didn't know I needed to direct the question as I thought it was pretty obvious. I've seen this on other boards to where a group of people have set their qualifications for being a Buckaroo and basically verbally spanked anybody they felt didn't meet said qualifications. Has nothing to do with religious views or idol worship! I was just curious and she did start the conversation. Why can't people be asked to back up their opinions anymore without it being a witch hunt? If I make a statement and someone ask me why I said it I simply answer why I said it. Maybe they will learn something or Lord knows I've learned a thing or two through the exchanges. And I've actually never used the word 'snipe' in this type of instance I was just mirroring what PP99 said so I guess I don't know whether I was being "snipe" or not??!? I've been 'snide' before a time or two! I guess it's time to insert smiley face too.
Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[clk]

I think any professional that puts his work out there for the public must need a fairly thick skin. You set yourself up for all the "experts" to critique.

I don't know Mr. Caldwell from Adam, but I have heard some good things about him, and that he knows the front end of the horse from the back. I am willing to bet he's not all that concerned what some armchair quarterbacks think about his credentials.

As a card carrying armchair quarterback, I am more often dumbfounded by my own inability to get done what appears to come easily to these folks. But I know it didn't come easily because they are human same as me. So I respect them for finding and getting the ability. However they got it done.

[alanbell]

You know CLK I try and leave as much of my ego out of things as I can because I see how it can get in the way of progress BUT I do know how it feels to have spent time struggling to learn a craft and then to be critiqued by folks that might not even truly appreciate all that it takes to excell at that craft (not saying anything about PP99 as I don't know her credentials either) I took some of my braid work to a local rodeo early on and showed it to he sponsor I was going to be able to set up a booth in exchange for a braided quirt or an 'over/under' for the barrel racers (her daughter was a barrel racer) She took a look at my braid work, asked if I had made it. I replied that I had and then she said "Are we telling a little fib???" That hurt. Now it turns out that this lady has since become the promoter of a good friend of mine and she wonders why I don't really take a shine to her! Even thick skinned professionals are still humans and if you are proud of what you have accomplished then some of the critiques can still hurt. I don't know Richard Caldwell either and I've not seen the video in question but some of the folks that I do know see Richards horses and admire him for what he's accomplished. His horses look 'bonafide' ! I'm just curious as to why he couldn't be a farrier and have Buckaroo'd or how that fact makes his seem like he "telling a little fib".?..? No Idol worship or putting words into folks mouth just trying to make a little sense of something that so far makes no sense to me.
Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[clk]

Well sir... As you know, there isn't a blessed reason why he couldn't have been a farrier and worked as a hand at the same time. If I was running an operation, I would think someone with both those skills would be quite an asset.

As to the comments, I really would chalk them up to some insecurity and leave it at that. That lady may have been trying to prove to you how much she "knows" about a braided quirt. Obviously to this day she doesn't realize that her thoughtless comment insulted you. Rest assured there are quite a few more people who appreciate good work than there are that want to tear things down to build themselves up.

And.. sometimes people just say dumb things. Me included.

While i have your ear... I am riding a little TB who has been off work about a year. I am riding him while my good horse heals up from a suspensory injury. He is a fine little horse but very sensitive. When we are working on something challenging he occasionally will just throw in a buck. It's not malicious, he rarely moves me an inch out of the saddle, and it's over as fast as it starts and we get back to work. I just support him afterwards, get him soft, and get back to work. He's not spooky but it just seems like his circuits get overloaded and something has to give. He's a good horse and more educated than I am. He's just a bit rusty.

I'm not sure how to fix that, or even if I should try. Is that something you think he ought to work through on his own? Or more precisely, that will just go away with consistent riding?

[alanbell]

Well, It sounds like you are handling it correctly and are their to support the horse. I would rule out any physical problems by checking for muscle soreness or tension from the withers to the croup and the shoulders and the hip. I would also check that the saddle is fitting good and there are no problems along the bottom of the saddle. Then I would make sure to pay extra attention to what happens just before what happens, happens! I'm sure that the horse is giving you a signal that it is getting uncomfortable and getting ready to buck. That may offer a clue to what the horse is trying to tell you. It may be a tightening , a twitch a nod or a turning of the head or even just an ear. It may just be trying to duck out of having to tote you around and would prefer to be with stable mates. If you keep handling it like you are and there is not a physical cause then it should go away but whether it will or not is the $50.73 (adjusted for inflation) question!
Vaya Con Dios, Alan

[palehorse]

clk ;....just curious, but could it be that your horse is just expressing enthusiasm?

[doma vaquera]

Are you saying that because he worked as a farrier that excludes him from making bridle horses, working cattle and big loop roping? Or does a person have to spend EVERY minute working for a big outfit to be a "Buckaroo" and if he is working his own small herd of horses and cattle he is not a "Buckaroo" to your standard? Or if he has spent 30 yrs learning and perfecting his craft but did it sometimes on a big outfit and others on small outfits and sometimes on his own that the only time that actually counts towards his "Buckaroo" resume is the time on big outfits and the rest is just time spent with horses by your accounting? Or if a person spent time shoeing other folks horses for pay while he was Buckarooing then how could he be considered a Buckaroo because he spent that bit of time shoeing NOT Buckarooing to your standard? I guess it would just be easier to ask what is your standard to qualify as a "Buckaroo" and then I'd kinda be interested in how you came to what ever conclusion you have? Not wanting to snipe either but you kinda opened this can.
Vaya con Dios, Alan Bell

Alan,

Bless you, bless you, bless you!! You are right on the money.

Richard may not be the "messiah" but he sure has helped EH with a lot of his time (see all the mag articles - Emily sure thinks he knows something huh?) and based on his horses and his accomplishments, no one and I mean no one who has not accomplished the same should attempt to undermine someone who is not even on this board and can defend himself. He is of the caliber and IMO actually quite above many other "messiahs" quoted on this board.

To try and question a man's word? That's little and mean.

This must just stem from a jealousy factor. If you want your horses as good as Richard's then make them that way. Don't spend your time on a computer typing to make yourself feel better when you could be out riding and making yourself and your horse better.

[reata]

He is of the caliber and IMO actually quite above many other "messiahs" quoted on this board.
.

As I said everybody is entitled to their opinion. :)

I have no idea what Richard says his past was and it doesnt really interest me. I have watched him a couple of times at the Californios and heard the cheers for his horsemanship and I have read the magazine articles and I understand he may have helped many people. He is obviously the flavor of the month but to date I sure get a lot more out of other contributors to the magazine.
And that is my opinion for what its worth!!!

[doma vaquera]

I have no idea what Richard says his past was and it doesnt really interest me.

You have hit the nail on the head Reata.
His past and what he says about it should not matter to folks (although the man is not a liar). His present is what should be evaluated - some folks who have buckarooed on a big name ranch for decades may very well not be a good horseman. Names and places do not make a horseman.
Watching a rider like Richard blow away folks at Californios with his horsemanship (and a stunning half pass or two ;) ) is where he should be judged. Go ride one of his horses - feel the goal we are all striving for with our horsemanship.

How good is his riding?
How good or handy are his horses?
And the most important . . . it's our individual choice ultimately. If you don't see anything that interests you in one person, but you see it in another then go and learn all you can from the person you feel most comfortable with.

[reata]

Watching a rider like Richard blow away folks at Californios with his horsemanship (and a stunning half pass or two) is where he should be judged.

DV I hate to put a spanna in the works but that was NOT A Half Pass... even though the crowd thought it was spectaular.. I thought to my self what in the world was that..
It may have been what some people call a side pass or a leg yeild or maybe a counter bend canter across the diagonal but it was NOT A Half Pass... in a half pass the horse must bend and look in the direction of travel, not the opposite!!! A good half pass is truly beautifull to watch. The crowd got excited but I thought what the?? Maybe my classical dressage training ruined it for me ..LOL
It wasn't the only thing I saw him do that I didn't like and I did see some others do stuff that wasn't pretty too but I guess the majority were impressed..:o

[clk]

clk ;....just curious, but could it be that your horse is just expressing enthusiasm?


I'd sure like that but no, I don't think so. There is no little shake of the head or neck to show he just feels good. He would blow up every ride at first. Especially during canter transitions. Panicky stuff. Now if just happens when we are in a lesson and working harder than he thinks a little brown horse should work. The panicky feel is gone now, which is nice. He's one of those horses that is not tolerant of mistakes on the rider's part and he's quick to complain, but this is different. He's a great teacher though. Ride him correctly and he does very well. Although the little outbursts don't appear to have a discernable reason, for sure there is one. Ill keep trying to find it, and just handling it as it comes.

[palehorse]

clk....that explanation creates a little different picture. sounds like you have come a long ways with him and it must feel pretty good to you and to him. the "learnin" horse makes for a "thinkin" person!

[kindredspirit]

Back to the originating post. What about the DVD was worthwhile? What did you learn? Do you recommend it to others?

Respectfully,
Kathy

[nnaannccyynnaann]

'''DV I hate to put a spanna in the works but that was NOT A Half Pass... even though the crowd thought it was spectaular.. I thought to my self what in the world was that..
It may have been what some people call a side pass or a leg yeild or maybe a counter bend canter across the diagonal but it was NOT A Half Pass... in a half pass the horse must bend and look in the direction of travel, not the opposite!!! A good half pass is truly beautifull to watch. The crowd got excited but I thought what the?? Maybe my classical dressage training ruined it for me ..LOL'''''

I don't know why some folks just have to point out what is wrong with something. i just got on this board after reading some sniping on another board and thought i would wander around and see what all the fuss is about. you know, it probably wasn't truely a Half Pass...so excuse the improper use of that word. And the MAJORITY of folks enjoyed it, so can we just leave it at that...call it what you want. I am his wife, and his harshest critic, but also the one who has his back. He doesn'st read this stuff. I smiled when he did that "whatever manuever". rest of the story????? Maybe this is in defense, maybe might just be of interest...take it for what I am saying...as the wife who does his dirty laundry LOL!!! (see me smiling) HE is NOT the 2nd coming. He is a man who works HARD at perfecting his horsemanship. He is fanatically precise in everything he does horseback. He eats, sleeps, dreams, studies the tools of the trade and what it takes to get it done with to close of perfection as he can get. What you see him do in public is EXACTLY what he does at home. believe me, i would love to catch him at something so i could get one up on him.. Haven't been able to yet. As for that performance at the Californio's? He had not been horseback for the 6 prior months because of a 2nd back surgery. He got horseback the week prior to the competition without a doc's release. The horse was brought back out of pasture without more then a week riding and not being "tuned" on a cow. I thought he was nuts to even attempt the stock horse class much less the roping part of the competion. What you saw was a man warming up his horse just like he does here at home CUZ HE WAS IN TOO MUCH PAIN TO LOPE HIM DOWN before the competion. He always warms them up with leg yielding exercises....just like the one he did there, except that he threw in a lead change to keep with the required pattern. That was all. I saw a man and his horse perform in an outstanding way considering all that led up to that performance. That horse never even blinked an eye when richard completed the stock horse event by tying off.
"""It wasn't the only thing I saw him do that I didn't like and I did see some others do stuff that wasn't pretty too but I guess the majority were impressed..""""
He was not there to please anyone but himself. He is true to himself. He probably does alot of things some folks don't like. SO WHAT?!?!? He is not dressage expert, but he certainly appreciates what they do. Fact is Wendy Murdock is good friends with him and is coming right around Californio's time to spend some time with him. They, as all good horsemen should do, will spend time critiqueing each other and BELIEVE me...will discuss movements that I will not even attempt.
I don't usually write a bunch (seems like I have said this before)LOL,.. But GEEZ a guy puts out a dvd and the critics raise their heads. Yeah, you gotta have thick skin...and that is a shame. take the dvd for what you can get out of it. Richard has dvds from everyone, ...Weavers, Aguilar, martins, Wendys, Varians, Walters, and gosh I am sure I left some out... Point being, you can learn from all and you don't have to snipe one down in the process. And I guess I can't tell you if I like the dvd or not, again i am his worst critic and biggest supporter...but I can tell you that we have had MASSIVE positive response.
Nancy caldwell

[doma vaquera]

Nancy - class act as always.

I would hazard a guess (actually more than a guess) that an actual half pass where the horse's nose and hip are pointed in the direction of travel is easier than asking a horse to point his nose and hip AWAY from the direction of travel and to toss in a flying lead change too.

I just realized that no one answered the question of how the DVD is. Well it is the first in a series. just like Richard's clinics, he starts them all out with a discussion of all the gear he uses and goes into detail. The DVD is just like that.

Richard talks about all the gear HE uses. He has ridden horses for a very long time and has honed his choices of what he uses every day to what he shows on the DVD. Remember these are his choices and opinions alone, he just offers it up to folks who would like to know more from where he comes from.
He goes in depth into the different gear, the uses, the whys wherefores, and hows of each piece - what he does in different situations. He is great about telling you who he uses so that folks who do not have access to gearmakers can start to learn some of the names and see their work which will never be found in a local tack store. He gives you invaluable tips and tricks to use at home or even in the show ring. He explains what he looks for when buying stuff.

I don't know if anyone else has released a DVD on gear alone but this is one that everyone who ever wanted to learn about vaquero horsemanship should have. I think if you betray your horse with badly made gear it makes your journey darn near impossible so why not use this as a tool to educate yourself on one of the fundamental building blocks?

The DVD starts with footage of Richard riding his horses - watch that and see a master at work, don't know or see too many folks out there who can reach that level and to see them is pure art in motion.

It's worth every penny and you will enjoy seeing some stunning gear. It will also answer a lot of common questions folks have and probably provide some answers to things people didn't even have questions about!

[nnaannccyynnaann]

Hey there, glad to see you on this board. i was thinkng about that manuever (for sake of arguement we will call it leg yielding) and asked richard about it. He lifted his head up from his book and said it was simple leg yielding, end of story. He is not calling it something that it is not. SORRY, BUT SIMPLE LEAD CHANGE MY #$%^. Now I, for the life of me, can do the simple leg yield on my horse Hank (gotta luv him!) but I can not throw in the lead change. My brain and body just get boggled up...yes i am yielding to the left on the left lead, corner to corner in the arena, and then I try to do a change of lead mid way onto the right lead and still continue yielding to the left. I don't know dressage terminology, but there has got to be a name for this manuever other then simple leg yielding. And while doing this, to make it look pretty, you can't crank your horses body into some type of pretzel or leap into the air or burst into another speed gear. AND it was done in a bosal. HMMMMM Maybe that was what impressed the majority. I am determined to get this movement down with grace and elegance.
Quote for the book that Richard (he is smiling as he reads it) is now reading... " la vanidad mundana" (cared not a fig for public opinion) Now question he asks of the eclectic folks...who wrote this? HINT...an old vaquero.
Nancy

[clk]

Kudos on your posts.

Thank you for taking the time to give us the real story. The more I learn, the more I know I don't know. I was whining yesterday about one of the horses I am riding now because he hadn't been worked in a week and was fresh. I can't imagine having back surgery, pulling a horse out of the field and competing anyway. Your husband must have gotten a couple of extra doses of try from his maker. I'll remember his example next time I think I have something to complain about.

I would appreciate it very much if you could come back and post more often.

[reata]

Hi Nancy, and welcome to our little board..:)

"I don't know why some folks just have to point out what is wrong with something. i just got on this board after reading some sniping on another board and thought i would wander around and see what all the fuss is about. you know, it probably wasn't truly a Half Pass...so excuse the improper use of that word. And the MAJORITY of folks enjoyed it, so can we just leave it at that...call it what you want."

I don't really think I was pointing out anything wrong in my post except the fact that DV had a simple "Leg yield" (technically it wasn't a true leg yield either) mixed up with the rather difficult exercise, a "sidepass". Yes, the majority of folks liked it and I mentioned that..Can we leave it at that?? I thought we had??
Sniping on other boards?? Please let me know what boards so I can be privy to this sniping.
This is a friendly board and snipers don't usually hang around very long.. but sadly we have been invaded at times..
The posters here, post horse related threads about riding and clinicians and saddles and books and dvd's and whatever and other people with knowledge in that area post their experiences..its a pretty simple formula and it works quite well.

Thanks DV for the critique of the DVD, it sounds good!!

Nancy a leg yield is not a collecting exercise and in dressage it is one of the first things a budding dressage horse is taught, to yield off the leg.. Once that is established most dressage trainers will agree "STOP with the leg yields"..LOL.. and start with some simple lateral movements, Shoulder Fore and Shoulder In, Travers and Revers.. Lateral exercises are collecting movements..The before mentioned are all prerequisites to the half pass. A nicely executed half pass has all the grace and elegance you speak of..

I hope Richard and Wendy have fun sharing each others experience and I'm sorry I dont know who the Old Vaquero is.. But a guess... Arnold Rojas???

[nnaannccyynnaann]

Morning! Snow here this am. ANyway, I understand leg yielding. (I think) But at what point does it become side passing. And when performed at the lope,and then throwing in lead changes, doesn't collection become necessary? And if collection becomes a part of the manuever, is it now a higher dressage movement? See, I think that movement has to be more then a simple leg yield. So just wondering what it might be. Thanks for getting back to me!!!
Nancy

[kindredspirit]

Nancy - class act as always.

I just realized that no one answered the question of how the DVD is. Well it is the first in a series. just like Richard's clinics, he starts them all out with a discussion of all the gear he uses and goes into detail. The DVD is just like that. !

That was me that asked, and I appreciate your answer. Sounds like an interesting DVD.

Kathy
Follow Your Bliss Farm
Midway TN

[reata]

Morning! Snow here this am. ANyway, I understand leg yielding. (I think) But at what point does it become side passing. And when performed at the lope,and then throwing in lead changes, doesn't collection become necessary? And if collection becomes a part of the manuever, is it now a higher dressage movement? See, I think that movement has to be more then a simple leg yield. So just wondering what it might be. Thanks for getting back to me!!!
Nancy

Hi Nancy,
I don't come from a Dressage background, in fact quite to opposite.. I spent 25 years playing polocrosse, then 15 odd chasing cows in campdrafting..(Both fast Aussie horsesports) About 16 years ago I heard about Ray and Buck and then after the Sydney Olympics I found I was really interested in this dressage stuff..Dressage is the hardest, most thought demanding thing I have ever done with my horses..I do have a classical trainer who's methods blend beautifully with the horsemanship I have learned from Tom, Ray and Buck. I will try to explain the exercise and the reasons for some of the dressage movements..
A leg yield is a simple exercise. The horse is not bent (flexed) in any direction but he moves away from the leg in a forward and slightly sideways direction. It can be done at a walk, trot or canter.
A Shoulder Fore is the first of the lateral movements..the horse is going in a forward direction but his shoulders are brought off the track and his hind end is still on the track. To do this his body has to flex a little to the inside..the inside hind leg has to step up under his body.. to allow this hind leg to step up and under properly the horse has to lift his belly and back. Whilst riding a correct SF you can feel that inside hind stepping under and the back rising to accommodate it .. a shoulder IN requires just a little more angle and is therefore just a little harder for the horse to maintain .. looking from the front both movements are on 3 tracks ..
Travers or Haunches In is very similar to SI only the hind quarters comes in off the track and the front end stays on the track. The outside hind leg has to step under and when done correctly the horse has to raise his back so it too is a collecting exercise..
To put is simply SI, Travers and Renvers are all similar exercises just the direction of travel are different.. a horse can only flex (bend) one way or the other..
The travers and the half pass are basically the same movement but the half pass is done with out the support of the rail or the track..
The horse is travelling in the direction of his bend, forwards and sideways on 3 tracks, the head points to the direction of travel and the tail stays almost parallel to the rail. A more advanced 1/2pass involves more lateral bend and the movement will be on 4 tracks ..
All these movements can be taught in a short amount of time by a rider with lots of feel but the horse needs time to develop the suppleness and strength to maintain the flexion and forwardness..all these movements require the horse to collect and collection takes time to develop. We are talking many months, if not years of conditioning.
There are other movements that require counterbends to help the horse with his straightness and suppleness but the 4 mentioned above and variations of them are the most important .. they lead to the highter school movements by the way they condition the horses body ..
You did mention a sidepass in your post but a sidepass is not a dressage movement..it is a western movement but I think you meant 1/2 pass anyways..
Dressage was not a popular subject with many of the Vaquero Horsemen but some of the smarter ones are seeing the value in the the movements and expanding their knowledge. I think many of them had been doing some of the lateral stuff with their cow working exercises..they just didn't know the value of it all, or maybe they did and couldn't explain it..I know a lot of the horsemanship I learnt from Buck and Ray started to fall into place with my dressage lessons..and I know the feel for the horse and for the feet has helped me heaps in my dressage.. Life is good when it all starts to fall into place.. and my horses enjoy it too ..

Nancy I don't remember the lead change in the movement we are talking about, there is a very old exercise that involves a lead change but I can't remember its name (Mares Tales HELP!!!).. if Richard has the time could he explain exactly what he did with the leads and lead changes to refresh my memory??
Maybe he did do an advanced dressage movement LOL :)

[nnaannccyynnaann]

Alot of what you described we do on a daily basis with our horses. We actually do more of those exercises then just "loping" around the arena. I just did not have a name for all of it. I suppose richard knows the names but I never bothered to learn them as I assumed they were normal exercises that most riders did. I consider it all a process of getting better control of the horse's body parts in order to perform more as one unit. The movement that Richard did is as follows (I will not put a name on it). He was doing simply leg yielding, with collection, at the canter moving diagonally from corner to corner, with the horses body facing staight (perhaps bent away from the direction of movement) down the length of the arena. In the middle of the arena he did a lead change, but continued on the same diagonal without going in the direction of the lead until he got to the far corner. So basically midway, when he changed leads, the horse had to continue in a counter-canter direction until he came to the corner of the arena, where he was then allowed to continue in the direction of the lead he was on. Then he did the same movement the opposite direction. And this was all also done in the hackamore, with collection maintained on a loose rein. That is why the crowd was very pleased with what they saw, and that is why i say there was more to it then just a simple leg yield exercise. It was actually a demonstration of complete control. the fact that the lead change was done so smoothly so that it was almost unseen again shows the complete unity between rider and horse. there it is in a nutshell. richard is a big believer in dressage exercises and basically uses them for better control of the horse for when he is working cattle. The movements and control are extrememly useful when you have to move "off' of the cattle when working them. You need that complete body control and you need instantly! The actual definition of "dressage" is French for "training". So I guess technically we practice dressage everyday, I have just never applied the French terminology to the exercises. Technically, the manuever that richard did was considered a 3rd level dressage movement. 2nd level, from my understanding, does not involve flying lead changes. (Don't quote me) I have never applied the dressage terminology to the movements, but do understand haunches in, haunches out, counter traveling,etc....and practice them daily. We can put a name to the manuever that was done, but that does not change the nature of the manuever itself. It was a beautiful execution of communication between horse and rider, both of whom were literally brought out of pasture and " came together" for the moment.
Nancy

[reata]

Thank you Nancy for your reply.
Nancy I do not wish to offend you or Richard but I thought I knew how to execute the dressage movements but I had no idea. I always had to much angle or too much bend and when this happens the whole reason behind the exercise is lost..The dressage movements are very subtle, each movement prepares the horse for the next. Each movement strengthens the horses body. The movements become slower and more elevated as more and more weight is carried behind.. The more weight carried behind the more power the horse has.. the more power, the more explosive and beautiful the horse becomes..
Most of the exercises I see (Richard may have other ideas) for cattle working are Counterbends and horses stepping out away from the bend in their bodies..IE pick up an inside rein get the eye and then get the horse to step away from where he is looking with your inside leg.. These are fine exercises!! but to have a horse travel with impulsion and grace, legs crossing with precision and balance in the direction he is looking to me is truly beautiful..
I'm not really interested in most of the competition dressage you see at the big international Comps..with the German push push push forward forward forward.. tense horses with legs going in all directions. But I do love the true art in classical dressage..
The old Vaqueros and classical dressage have a lot in common, I guess because the traditions started in the same place.. I would love Richard to sit down and chat with the likes of Manollo Mendez I'm sure both could learn a lot ..;)

[nnaannccyynnaann]

No offense taken! I do not know hardly a thing about dressge...Just the EXTREMEMLY very basic. I do believe that the more one is educated, trained, learned, whatever in a certain area of horsemanship, the more that person appreciates the training and movements associated with that horse activity. You could probably well more appreciate dressage movements because you are aware of the difficulty in achieveing that movement and each movement above that. That does not mean that I don't love and enjoy watching dressage, or that I don't attempt movements...I just don't apply terminology to them correctly. I can appreciate a well trained horse in our field of expertise, that being a truely soft and collected hackamore horse or a horse "fully" "up" in the bridle...(ie,, not just a horse with a bridle on as headgear) I can really appreciate seeing a horse fully collected, with impulsion coming from the rear. We strive to get a horse softer and softer so that eventually , when he is "fully" a bridle horse, he almost floats with the rider aboard....full impulsion is coming from the hindend, the bridle is only being used as a slight signal with almost all signals coming from the seat and unsee cues coming from the legs and truely unseen cues from the hands. We start with over exagerated use of BOTH hands on a green horse to the beautful one-handed spade bridle horse who is so in tune with the rider that they are as one. So you see, I can appreciate movement....I just am ignorant in the field of dressage. That does not mean that we both are not striving for the same end result..beauty and softness....yet power and impulsion at the flick of a wrist and all under complete harmony between rider and horse. Years of careful and exact training. Actions that can be done instantaneous at bursts of extreme speed with the same control as if being done at a walk. I think that one thing we might differ on is equipment used. I believe that a snaffle can be one of the cruelest mouth pieces there is. It can become a vice in a horses mouth if used in the wrong way (ie both hands pulling at the same time) It is a training tool but it seems alot of riders use it exclusivly and actually hang onto it to help balance when riding. I believe that the quicker one passes on to the hackamore (or can bypass the snaffle altogether) and then onto the 2-rein and then onto a finshed bridle, the less damage one does to his horse. Now this is just our my thoughts, and I take no offense at someone thinking differently. I like a horse that after years of training, can take responsiblity for collecting himself without constant pulling on his mouth. It is like getting on a horse with power stearing....an end product that if the slack is even taken out of the reins, the horse is reacting in a controlled and self-collected manner to the anticipated movement. See, I can get all caught up in the beauty of even just describing it. So we both appreciate our selective arts. And that is saying both are truely art forms.
Nancy

[reata]

Nancy, thank you for that reply. I can tell it was written in the same spirit my posts were written and that can be hard sometimes over this media..We are on the same page!!:-)
I appreciate the same things you do and I hate to see horses held and pulled on and forced into a frame or collection. That is why I go with the classical trainer not the competition trainer.. LOL I guess I have the best of both worlds.. My dressage horse is ridden in a snaffle bit, hes light and responsive and trys so hard for me ..He is a true joy to ride.. My little mare is in a hackamore. I'm afraid, in the past, I pulled on her in the snaffle and switching to a softish bosal sure found the holes in my horsemanship but now she is a pleasure to ride as well .. Just wish she wasn't so rough LOL. I do have a little 4 year old and with his conformation and temperament I'm hoping he may be my future bridle horse.. LOL so now you can see I'm not strictly dressage..I sit on the fence, learn as much as I can and always appreciate good Horsemanship ..
Thanks for the conversation, I enjoyed it ..
Marie

[Sue]

Excellent thread! I need to catch up on all of it, but I have been thinking about what you are talking about alot lately. Also, been watching alot of Pablo Hermoso on youtube. Not the internet-weary one of Merlin, but his other horses. They are all very broke... as broke as the one in the Merlin video. Those horses are so FLUID in their lateral movements. I haven't seen that level of fluidity or collection in the reining world OR the GP dressage world. Seems like the reiners lost the balance and collection, while the GP horses are rigid and seems pissed off or stressed, for the most part. Very much like they have been stuffed into little boxes of correctness. I'm rambling. I'll find some examples.

This is a good example... three different horses, PLUS Pablo gets trailer-hitched at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAutFtg_G6U

Another one..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSuGqbZqCQg


If you ever get bored, spend an afternoon watching all his stuff on youtube. Makes me want to save my pennies for a Lusitano and enter it in the Elko Fair.

[reata]

LOL OMG!! Sue those horses!!! But I really hate they way they torment the Bull. Gosh some of them were really MAD!!!
I have a friend who spent 12 months in Portugal with Nuno Oliverio, she has some home videos of him riding..One of him training a bull fighting horse. Simply superb and all with out the bull for motivation.. I wish she would give me a copy ..
Those Spanish and Portuguese horsemen sure know horses.. and the Spanish breeds of horses can sure move..
My dressage coach is Spanish and he trains Lusitanos, Andalusian and the Pure Spanish horses for demonstrations and shows..Not many Bull fights in Australia!! He says they are very cruel anyways.. LOL He looks very much like Pablo with less hair. LOL
BTW Glad to see you up and about...:eek:

[buckstitch]

LOL OMG!! Sue those horses!!! But I really hate they way they torment the Bull. Gosh some of them were really MAD!!!
I have a friend who spent 12 months in Portugal with Nuno Oliverio, she has some home videos of him riding..One of him training a bull fighting horse. Simply superb and all with out the bull for motivation.. I wish she would give me a copy ..
Those Spanish and Portuguese horsemen sure know horses.. and the Spanish breeds of horses can sure move..
My dressage coach is Spanish and he trains Lusitanos, Andalusian and the Pure Spanish horses for demonstrations and shows..Not many Bull fights in Australia!! He says they are very cruel anyways.. LOL He looks very much like Pablo with less hair. LOL
BTW Glad to see you up and about...:eek:

Do you say he's your trainer like that because you own him, because he is exclusively your trainer, or because your selfish and don't want to share him?