Vertical Flexion in the Hackamore

[ponygirl]

howdy all you hackamore experts out there! i have only been training my colts in a rawhide hackamore for 3 years or so now... so i'm still fine tuning the feel (i used to start colts in a snaffle)
a question... how do you ask for vertical flexion (soft feel)? I have a gelding 5yo (i always say "i have" but they're really clients horses)... started late but he's getting there... he has lateral flexion down and is moving through his gates and sidepasses nicely, all on a loose rein... i think it may be time to work on proper headset

what i do... i use a single rein with gentle pulls and slacks to get a soft feel, usually at a trot... as soon as i get the feel and he tips his nose for 5 seconds or so i release... i think its a bit too much to ask em to carry that headset for too long at this stage... do you agree?

how do you all first begin to ask for this type of flexion...


also how do you feel about the practice of tying a horses head with the mecate to either side at the beginning of training... tight on one side and slack on the other so the horse can learn that if he tucks in his nose he reduces the pressure? do you believe that this does or does not produce a softer feel to the hackamore later on? any thoughts? i know many old timers swear by it, but i have not tried it myself.

thanks!!

[doma vaquera]

Hi ponygirl!

First off I want to address the aspect of "checking" your horse in the bosal. DO NOT do it, PLEASE! It is a lazy way to try to get the horse to pick itself up and into a frame without just doing the work yourself. It will dull the horse to the hackamore and teach them to root through and you will have a mess before you even start.

The way I get a horse to flex is I start by setting my hands where I want them and then driving the horse forward at a walk. If the horse is on my hands I will bump him, one rein OR the other (never pull both reins of a hackamore at the same time, not even for stops) until he gets off my hands and holds a frame. You need the impulsion of driving to round him out and get his hind underneath - you do not pull the horse back over himself to get the frame.
I only have them do that for very short periods of time as the upper neck muscles do need to gain strength and then you can ask them to hold the frame longer and longer. The release is when the horse flexes enough that there is a slight slack in my mecate from where my hands are set. You will have to bump him off your hands gently many times for him to understand he cannot rest on the bosal and to learn to keep slack in the rein as he'll probably relax back out once you stop bumping. That's ok - then just repeat until he's back where you want him again. It just takes time and repetitive consistent work.

You can check a horse in a bridle, with a shanked unbroken mouth bit - but it must be done while supervising the horse in a confined area and is only for building up the upper neck muscles. However, as your horse is already in the bridle at this point if you need to check him to teach him to stay off or behind the bit, then you screwed up somewhere in your training.

[ponygirl]

First off I want to address the aspect of "checking" your horse in the bosal. DO NOT do it, PLEASE! It is a lazy way to try to get the horse to pick itself up and into a frame without just doing the work yourself. It will dull the horse to the hackamore and teach them to root through and you will have a mess before you even start.


it sounded like a great way to dull up a horse. i just wanted to see what other more experienced hackamore folks thought before completely writing it off. why was this so widely practiced?? other than having some older trainers suggest it, i've read about it in ed connells book hackamore reinsman...

great instructions on getting that flexion, i think i've been doing as you say, but will continue to practice!

[rsandi5218]

Ponygirl said "what i do... i use a single rein with gentle pulls and slacks to get a soft feel, usually at a trot... as soon as i get the feel and he tips his nose for 5 seconds or so i release... i think its a bit too much to ask em to carry that headset for too long at this stage... do you agree?"


You need to release after the nose gets started to coming around and not 5 seconds after. The horse will start to keep it there longer on his own. Let him use his own brain.

More proper exercises and less "pushing into frame, holding steady hands and driving with legs" will make an overall more happy less dull of a horse. Having tried both, I'm more in favor of a slack rein unless I really want the feet coming with the slack coming out.

Randy

[ICEMAN]

It is a damn shame that Connell's books have been used as a beginners bible to the hackamore for so many years. I fully believe that while there is a wealth of knowledge in them they were intended or at least they seem to be better for someone that has a working knowledge of the hackamore. Also one has to remember that any person's writings or teachings are only what works for them and the horses that they have ridden.

Now as far as riding in the hackamore goes the clinicians of today have built it up till people think it is some magical and mystical thing. The reason for this is a person needs to be a little better horseman in the hackamore to keep from being killed. It is all a liability issue and that is why they have everyone start in the snaffle. I have yet to find the perfect manual for it. The best way is just to ride and when you have screwed up enough horses and your still alive you'll start turning out some good ones. I am not saying you should seek out advice though!!

I think of a head set as relief for the horse. This will set them up for a bridle bit that is correctly balanced and demands the vertical or near vertical head. They set their head because that is where the relief is. That being said what I do is set my hands to where if the head is vertical there will be the slightest float in the reins. This float may be invisible to a bystander but it is there and the horse knows and that is all that is important. If the horse pushes against my hands I will bump with one rein at a time (right, left, right, left) until the head reaches vertical and then I steady my hands and allow the float. I build on this from a stand still then at the walk, jog, canter then through down transitions then last up transitions. I won't hold it any longer than I think the horse is willing to while in the early stages. You'll know how long and if you hold it too long the horse will tell you. Just keep building. You'll do fine!

Just my thoughts,
Val

[Cinch]

Usually when the feet are right the head will be right.

[rsandi5218]

I am such a poor typer.

What I said
"I'm more in favor of a slack rein unless I really want the feet coming with the slack coming out"

what I meant to say
"I'm more in favor of a slack rein because I really want the feet coming with the slack coming out".

Not just the head. Unless that was what I was asking for.

I really like tha video by Les Vogt called "5 Easy Pieces". This has really helped me alot with getting the horse supple and feet moving nice. The flexion in my horses head just comes along by itself, mostly. Just like Cinch said.

Randy

[ICEMAN]

Usually when the feet are right the head will be right.

What is that some sort of ancient Indian riddle or something? OK I know what your meaning and I think ponygirl does too. Obviously she is a student of this riding philosophy and theory. So why is it that all the experts on this board have so much trouble with explaining the mechanics of riding? I think it is because you set on a computer or read some book instead of ride your horses finding out what really works!

Val

[Cinch]

That's part of the problem, most people are so involved with the MECHANICS of riding that they miss the FEEL of riding.

[Mares Tales]

It doesn`t matter what kind of outline the horse has, most commonly and mistakenly refered to and asked for as a headset........ if the softness that is felt in the poll and jaw do not go all the way down to the feet, it is not geniune........in fact, that is a good definition of a headset.....= a profile or an outline/ sillouette of what the horse LOOKS like on the OUTSIDE. In order to get to the inside of the horse; the mind, one has to get all the way down to the feet. Dressage riders call this "throughness" (permeability, which in turn means flexibility and responsiveness) For what the horse THINKS and believes (which allows him to "let go"; trust or distrust), the body is sure to follow.

[ICEMAN]

It takes a balance of feel and mechanics. It used to be a person could teach mechanics and a person would develop feel. However, in this day and age where most people's pets are a computer and television, we have lost all ability to understand it.

I would venture to say that without one the other is useless. If you only have mechanics you'll be riding a robot horse, with only feel you'll be riding a ten year old colt in a snaffle. Too many times we use the excuse of feel to cover our bad horsemanship or vice versa.

The question was a simple mechanics question of setting the head using a bosal instead of a snaffle. The question was answered before you could respond so you had to throw out something to make you sound Dorrancey.

[Cinch]

All of the Dorrances were pretty good hands, thank you.

[ICEMAN]

All of the Dorrances were pretty good hands, thank you.


We do agree on that!!

[red]

good one, Mares!


love,
red

[Sue]

What is that some sort of ancient Indian riddle or something? OK I know what your meaning and I think ponygirl does too. Obviously she is a student of this riding philosophy and theory. So why is it that all the experts on this board have so much trouble with explaining the mechanics of riding? I think it is because you set on a computer or read some book instead of ride your horses finding out what really works!

Val


Tomes and tomes are written on the mechanics of training. There's a thousand ways to turn a horse into a robot. I spent years doing it... brainwashing and loping them into submission in 118 degree heat, and can point you to some very good places to get that type of information, if thats what you are looking for out of this board. We are sharing ideas, rather than quick fixes and gimmicks most people look for.

I heard Cinch rides some... when he's not working on his Parelli levels.

[doma vaquera]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I think I kinda had the same HUH? moment as Iceman.

Ponygirl was asking some questions on how current hackamore users do certain things. I gave her the mechanical answer, trying to put in a little of my feel/release but at her level of riding she can get there on her own. She'll take the steps from everyone's explanations and her own findings and work them into her own method and use her own feel. And as she is familiar with this style of riding then a simple sentence of "Usually when the feet are right the head will be right" will be ok.

However, there are many people who lurk and learn, many beginners I am told, and so for them I would think expounding upon that sentence would be helpful. To just toss that out as an answer to a question makes me think of Obi-Wan ;) So I guess for the people who do not understand when we're talking about getting with the feet, start a reply with that sentence but then explain a little of what you mean or what your interpretation of that quote is.

I see a lot of people in this clinic to clinic world that spout the phrases they have learned yet they have no clue what they mean. I admit - they sound very sage and wise. But unless you know what the person is talking about in the first place, cryptic quotes aren't helpful at all without a little explanation or story. I get having people think for themselves is great, but I think a little nudge would be better than sending them off with just a phrase and running the chance that they may interpret it in a manner that will not help them or their horse.

[Titania]

I see a lot of people in this clinic to clinic world that spout the phrases they have learned yet they have no clue what they mean. I admit - they sound very sage and wise. But unless you know what the person is talking about in the first place, cryptic quotes aren't helpful at all without a little explanation or story. I get having people think for themselves is great, but I think a little nudge would be better than sending them off with just a phrase and running the chance that they may interpret it in a manner that will not help them or their horse.

i understand what you mean DV - I had an english professor that called it America's Bumper-Sticker mentality, as in American's want their information to be able to fit on a bumper-sticker - It was his proof that the dumbing down of America is real and that we have become a truly commercial nation where everything has to be delivered in sound bytes.

[Mares Tales]

Everyone wants an easy roadmap, it`s human to want to know how to get from here to there, the shortest and easiest way. I like easy solutions to my problems too but ........Horsemanship is not like that. It`s nice to have a board for DISCUSSION because so many can contribute their part, it gives the original poster something to THINK about.

The original poster asked........
"howdy all you hackamore experts out there! i have only been training my colts in a rawhide hackamore for 3 years or so now... so i'm still fine tuning the feel (i used to start colts in a snaffle)
a question... how do you ask for vertical flexion (soft feel)? I have a gelding 5yo (i always say "i have" but they're really clients horses)... started late but he's getting there... he has lateral flexion down and is moving through his gates and sidepasses nicely, all on a loose rein... i think it may be time to work on proper headset."

Headset is probably not the word you want in your mind if you are working all the way down to the feet. There is nothing in the word "headset" that suggests that the horse is letting go in the ribcage, topline, or his feet have turned loose. Headset suggests an outline which ends with the HEAD, that you do this or that and the head is SET. If you want to get to the horses mind, you need to get all the way down to the feet. If you want the horse to be flexible/loose in his body, then he needs to be flexible/ loose in his mind first. How to get to the mind is through the feet. For any braces that he is holding in his mind will work against you in developing a useful horse.

"what i do... i use a single rein with gentle pulls and slacks to get a soft feel, usually at a trot... as soon as i get the feel and he tips his nose for 5 seconds or so i release... i think its a bit too much to ask em to carry that headset for too long at this stage... do you agree?"

What is the rest of his body doing? How does his back feel? Is he stepping under properly? What are his feet doing? Does he follow your hand before you have to take the slack out? Is he following your feel?

"how do you all first begin to ask for this type of flexion..."

For me.......It starts with getting to the feet with the GROUNDWORK, the first time you pick up the leadrope. The first time you pick up the leadrope is when you start establishing the kind of relationship that you will have and if you have worked the horse in a rp before you put a halter on him, it can start even before you have any gear on the horse. It can start when you first walk out to the pasture. THAT`S really when I start to ask for flexion because I am beginning to establishing the kind of relationship that will continue to follow.


"also how do you feel about the practice of tying a horses head with the mecate to either side at the beginning of training... tight on one side and slack on the other so the horse can learn that if he tucks in his nose he reduces the pressure? do you believe that this does or does not produce a softer feel to the hackamore later on? any thoughts? i know many old timers swear by it, but i have not tried it myself."

In my opinion, any contraption that does not have human FEEL connected to it is mechanical. I hope I don`t hurt anyones feelings but..........the thought of what you describe disgusts me. I have seen it done more times than I wanted to and I feel bad for the horses that have to endure it.

You are searching and that is a good thing. Your questions are good questions and the answers can be found at the very heart of all good horsemanship. Most people do not ask these good questions, they just mimic the best they can what they see everyone else doing. To be a good horseman you have to consider the uniquenss of not only the equine species but also the uniqueness of the individual that you are trying to communicate with, and THAT is not an easy thing to do.

[ponygirl]

whew.. i stepped out for a day and this really took off...
i DO agree.. far too many people read, study books, movies... ect... and then talk about things they have not actually experienced. computers can be a wonderful tool... but nothing, nothing can replace experience... especially that trial and error in devloping feel (during which you will inevitably screw up a horse or two... or five... or ten)
i ride 5 or so horses a day.. 5 days a week. try to ride at least one finished horse so my position doesn't go to hell... the rest is spent on the colts. i've found when i don't spend enough time in the saddle, my feel goes out the window.. and reading 40 books won't fix that.
and yeah i take the comment on "proper headset" back... by that i dont mean just head set.. i mean getting the hind end beneath him... i mean suppleness through the topline (including the poll).. i always want a horse to be supple and break at the withers. these are all things i can accomplish readily in a snaffle (with much time of course) after about 10 years or starting colts. i am now interested in breaking horses in the true old style... hackamore first. these first few years have included much trial and error and the mechanics AND feel of the hackamore are much different (at least for me) than the snaffle bit. i've screwed up a few colts in the hackamore and have had to get them going in a snaffle to correct my mistakes, before switching back to the hackamore. but hey, ive got nothin but time! i'll get it. and one day i hope to make fine bridle horses.. and teach others... that will probably be many years from now... but i'm chipping away at it..
my underlying thought is that if i can produce good horses, good partners, they will be valuble to their owners.. they will not be ditched on roadsides, or shot, or left without hay and water. a good horse is a happy horse. i figure its doing right by the pony. happy ponies, happy people.. what a thought!
i didnt expact an easy road map... or a perfect text... or anything else... just a few helpful pointers from some people who've gone though it (not the "i watched martin blacks video and own an old horse i havn't rode in 8 months" types)...

Mares Tales, you asked how the horse is carrying himself.. yes is following my "feel". i get them to follow feel down the lead rope before i ever get on. have started colts both ways ..the first being jump on and hang on... and second being producing a relationship and feel before you ever get up in the saddle... i am completely convinced that the second is the way to go. i only being to ask for vertical flexion when...
1. the horse is bringing the hind end under
2. walk trot and lope transitions come easily on a loose rein and 90% from shifts in my weight.
3. he follows the feel of the rein and my weight in a turn, there is little pressure applied to the head peice at all.
4. his lead changes are taking shape
5. this is most important...he is relaaaxed... out dominace struggle days are long gone and we have a soft, working partnership.

if there are other things that in your experince you've found helpful, let me know...

i've found if you ask for vertical flexion before the hind end is under, before he is motor is in the hind end, you end up with a horse that is hollow backed and stiff in the poll... yuck! i know because i've made a few of these hollow backed stiff polled horses... and it took a heck of a time to fix em! but those experiences were so valuble...

its too bad that in out fast paced time the horse is losing out. nothing replaces time and exerience. thats something i love about horses, they will teach you something every day if you open up to it.... its a life long journey... far more rewarding than a quick fix.

the discussion is wonderful.. it gives me thoughts to mull over at night and things to try to next morning. in the end the horse will let me know what i'm doing ok and what i'm royally screwing up!

[Mares Tales]

A great horseman is an artist, but the majority paint by number.

There are feet at the ends of each of those legs of the hindquarters.

Many people ride a lot of horses but if they apply the same "technique" over and over with each one, then they can expect to get closely the same results time after time, sometimes very disappointing results.

To build a sturdy house, one needs a good foundation to start from. Sometimes a person may have to tear down part of the house if problems arise, but if the foundation was reliable to start with, then it gives the person a place to start again. In horsemanship as well as construction, the foundation is a most important element because no matter what happens with the structure, the foundation will always be there to go back to and they can start again.

Let it be known that I am not criticising the original poster personally, I do not know them nor have I ever seen them interact with horses. I am speaking in general terms. Their question was a very valid one.

[ponygirl]

i don't take it personally. the critisicm is welcomed...
i fully understand what you mean when you say paint by numbers, great analogy... however, i do think it has helped me to come to certain milestones with my horses before asking for other things. these things may vary at times... it is simply a template to work by... anyone who knows horses, or people, or dogs, or anything living, knows that what works for one may not work for another. i'm sure in another 10 years the template will become more vague... as time and experience replace it...
for myself i've found i'd rather take the longer route at this point and be SURE that i'm not rushing my horse...
can't become a master artist until you've learned a few fundemental strokes...

[ICEMAN]

If you have read Bill Dorrance's book try to remember how he talks about posture and getting it right before getting into a cadence with the horse. I believe he was riding with a girl that had had some schooling.

[reata]

Ya nailed it Mares Tales!!! great post!!

[red]

A good friend of mine used to post on his website, a cowboy code. One of the tenets of this code was respect for the Viejo...the mature person who has knowledge, one who has "gone before". I find that respect for people who have gone before, like the Dorrances, Raymond, Caldwell, Cinch, are paramount to learning. Learning is born from respect....just as teaching is. Cinch is one of the true Viejos. He has cowboyed for a living longer then I have been alive. A man of few, but measured words. Maybe some folks are unaware of this. My advice is to pay pretty close attention to the things Cinch says. He has lived the life..been around, helping the newest of the new, for the last several decades..I have found that he is willing to help anyone who asks. There are a handful of teachers of his caliber left, the best of the best unsung.
You won't get flowers, and fluff, with most of the Viejos, and most of them will hush up, and let you search.. but you will get answers, based on years of experience, and myriad horses, brought to bridle, sometimes reaching back to the 40's, 50's and 60's.

I am not saying that any of the posts in this thread are invalid, all of them are note worthy, and from the heart. But I am saying that respect for those who have paved the way, for this type of horsemanship, is important. Not all aspire to the vaquero traditions, (tho those are the ways that touch my heart), and not many of the folks here practice clinicslutmanship. Most of us, are trying to better ourselves, and our abilities..sometimes in giant steps, sometimes baby steps.

Understanding that knowledge...is different then wisdom...is a very humbleing thing.

love,
red

[fantasia]

You put into words, so eloquently, the thoughts swimming around in my head as I was reading this thread. Here, here. And thank you.

[Titania]

Oh Dear, Cinch - Just for clarification - My post was in no way refering to your post - rather the, Um, as red said "clinicslutmanship" clinician's that speak the words as if they understand and live them, and some may, however the vast majority take ideas that aren't theirs and deliver them to the masses like some holy grail. And I've seen the damage it's done to people and horses.

My instructor Smokey is one that I consider a horseman (or woman) even though she'd never call herself that. She has lived and breathed working with horses from the day she was born. She has no label for what she does and she speaks in short riddles.

Occassionally, i'll figure something out and try to explain it back to her (usually thanks to all of you) and she just smiles and nods and says somthing like, "been waiting for you to get that." Then maybe I get a "good" or a smile and "there might be hope for you yet" and that's enough.

It's definetly a more rewarding style of learning, and it truly makes you think. Especially when it comes from someone who understands all of the implications of what they say and what they choose not to say.

So anyway the point is, Sorry, if i in any way offended. :)

[Cinch]

Don't worry, I'm not offended that easily. I re-read the thread & can't even find anything to get vaguely offended by.

[Scout]

Aw Cinch, that's onacounta the way you are! Red, thank you for that.

[Sue]

Thanks, Red... you're right on. <trying to remember the last clinic I was at>. Ahh yes, Daniel Stewart, US Olympic team coach... 3-4 years ago. I HIGHLY recommend it... in fact, might do a post on it someday. Would like to go again, next time ride in something other than a Crosby close contact.

What sticks with me, Cinch, was the story you told me about you and Ray riding at Palisade... pushing those cows through the train tracks by Rattlesnake Spring. I shudder to think about that. Thats nuts! I think about that whenever I am down there now, and when you guys appropriated the tractor - or was it a dozer?

[Dave Walker]

I think that there are really two different things people are talking about here. First is the horse leaning on the hackamore. You can't ever tolerate that or the horse will pretty quickly figure out that you really don't have a lot of control with a hackamore if the horse really decides to ignore it. Bumps on the hackamore with a single rein at a time is how to teach the horse not to lean on the hackamore. From this idea you will get soft stops, backups, flexion, etc.- the horse will execute the maneuvers with lightness in the reins. "Vertical flexion", "frame", "collection", or whatever you want to call it is really independent of the horse being light to the reins. As was said above, you don't want to pull the horse into a frame. Rather you want to drive the horse forward into collection by fixing the hands and driving with the legs. Release for the horse is a softening of the hands as the horse rounds the back and neck. As the horse develops strength it will be able to hold this configuration for longer and longer. When riding in this body position you don't really have "slack" in the reins like a loop in the reins. What you have is the reins supporting only the weight of the bosal. The horse carries itself so that the bosal is neither forward with the knot against the chin nor backward with the knot against the jaw. The rider holds the reins and the horse adjusts itself so that the bosal is midway between the forward and rearward position. This is sometimes called "working inside" the bosal.

Dave