Young horse BLOWUP

[ponygirl]

Hi all... I've been reading the forum for quite some time but signed up today to gain some advice...
I had a total disaster happen yesterday... as a short background, i start colts, have started over 150 in the last 10 years or so and generally use Parelli with my own twists..

i'm working a filly, she's saddled and I bring her down into the arena, she walks around just fine, calm as can be, following me at the end of the lead. Someone starts up a chain saw directly behind her, she spooks hard, then BLOWS up and bucks like shes trying to win the national finals. I get her calmed down, she relaxes and comes right to me (shes a very people oriented filly and tends to seek comfort with me and others she knows)...
due to the extreme bucking the pad has slipped out from under her saddle. I am worried the saddle will roll under her belly now that its loose from the lack of pads, so I begin to undo the cinch. She spooks again before I can get the thing off, the saddle does exactly as I feared and rolled under her belly! as you can imagine, she lost it, bucking like the world is ending, kicking the saddle over and over again. She tore outside, jumped a fence and bucked around for a good solid 15 minutes before she finally let her brain kick back on and invited me to come help her. I got the cinch off and turned her out with her buddies. Normally I always try to correct any incident and end on a positive note but her brain was so fried that she just needed to cool down.
It was quite a scene, thank god the horse is unhurt. I can think of 50 "should've could've" scenarios, but my question is where to go from here.

To let you know a bit about the filly, shes independant but normally enjoys people. She was not fearful before this event. I have completely lost her trust and today she was quite upset with me today, looking very skittish in the pasture, I am sure she associates the incident with my presence. I sat out with her from a couple of hours, fed her an apple (im not usually one for treats but I had to this time). She approached me many times but seemed nervous and not like herself at all. I breaks my heart to see her like this!
I am used to working with horses who have these types of issues but I myself am not used to causing the issue! It is much easier when the horse doesnt associate you with the problem, as is the case here. I have come up with a plan for recovery, but would love to hear your thoughts!
Where would you go from here with a young horse who no longer tursts you and will inevitably have a great fear of the saddle (she has been saddled about a dozen times bfore with incident). I do a lot of round pen work and would like to try things that would work in that setting. Any help is much appriciated!

[hrc]

Just take her back to square one and start her again in the round pen. If she has a solid foundation it shouldn't take her long to regain her confidence. If not you just start at square one and build back up again to where you were. It may take longer this time but there are no short cuts.

[reata]

Gosh Ponygirl, what a shame. Lucky nobody got hurt..
But I cant help thinking that that behaviour was in there all along and it was gunna come out anyways. Had she ever bucked before with the saddle??
I hate to be critical of anything you do and I can't see what your doing but your doing the best you can .. We all do that.. we can only do that..
Ask yourself have you been sneaking rides on this colt??
Were you sneaking round her not trying to get into trouble??
Have you exposed her to lots of stuff??
Is she a sensitive filly or dull?? When you wake up a dull colt the fun can really start..
I'm sure if Ray got into the wreck you and the filly got into he would just "Start over again".. Blow ups like that are all part of the job..We can't see everything that is about to happen with horses and it doesnt matter how much experience we have had..
We have to be aware and watchful but there will always be times when we miss stuff..
Learn from what happened and move on.. Start over..LOL try not to make the same mistake again ..Make some new ones and learn from those ..:eek:

Welcome to the board BTW.. This is a good place and we welcome like minded people.

"Your working from where the horse is at" RH

[Two Cents]

Hi!

I'm glad you're both OK. When they get upset and come to you for help while they're bucking it can sometimes get exciting.

You've already had some good advice. Just start over. Try your best to work with her as just a horse. No more, no less, she doesn't know anything good, or anything bad. If you can put the negative experience out of your mind it will be easier for her to also.

For now, forget the saddle. Get back to basics, moving her around the round pen, nice and soft and fluid, lots of changes in direction and gait, speeds within a gait. Direct all four feet in all four directions. Use a lariat, a halter and lead, just loose. Don't tie her to anything for a while. Get her good about coils of a lariat or something similar, maybe a flag, your hands, on her back, withers, belly, girth, legs. Advance and retreat. Try to always change the subject BEFORE she has a chance to object. All this should be done on a halter in the round pen. If she feels like she needs to go, let her, but then direct that movement. We wouldn't want her to feel trapped. If you're handy with a rope, get her good about moving out in the round pen with a rope around her belly. You don't neccessarily need a lariat. You could use one of those 20' lead ropes just fine. Tie a bowline and get her to where you can tug on it in a rhythmic way to get her to go, and kind of draw on it to get her to slow or stop. Get her to lead on that belly rope just as if it were a halter.

Don't go into this with the idea "I've got to get this fixed. I've got to get her saddled". That is only putting more pressure on both of you. Just let it happen.

When you do introduce the saddle again, whether it is later today or the middle of July, change some things up. When you're pretty sure she would be OK with it, change the subject. Never mind. Do something else. When she is pretty sure you're about to saddle her again, change the subject. If you usually saddled her in a grooming area on cross ties, do it in the round pen. If you usually saddled from the left side, do it from the right. On and off a few times without any girth or latigo. Quit for a while, do something else with her for a while.

You might be a little concerned that the saddle will slip again, and tighten it up too much. Just let yourself relax. As soon as it is on and secure enough for her to move, let her take a few steps. Pet her. A few more steps forward. If she can move in a big circle around you that is great. Don't bend her too much just yet. That girth will tighten as her ribcage expands as she bends, it might scare her, and off we go. Then she just might associate that fear with the bend, and you can get into real trouble.

If she gets a little worried, use your halter in a way that says "It's OK, I've got you" not "Dammit, quit that" . If she gets into a real storm, try your best to support her through it, just try to reassure her with the halter and lead. If it comes down to her just bucking it out, you might have to let that happen.

If you can have another horse or two or three in the pen with her, that will help. She will WANT to go with them, and be less concerned about the saddle, less likely to associate her fear or discomfort with you. If you have a saddle horse to ride, even better. Get the whole group to move through lots of transitions, changes of gait and speed and direction. Pay close attention to the bend in her body. Is it the same as the arc she is traveling as she moves around the round pen? Is she counter bent? If so, try and fix that by drawing on that eye as she moves, every time she bends the wrong way, pull on an imaginary rope on her head. When she gives, release. Keep her moving, but let her find that comfortable spot.

Keep smiling!

[Two Cents]

Hi! Me again.

You might consider spending quite a bit of time working on changing eyes with this girl. She may have had a bit of a problem with it before, hiding just below the surface, or maybe you checked it out and worked through some things. But it wouldn't hurt to go back and do lots of changes of eyes. Make sure she can go from both directions, loose, on a long rope or lariat, up close on a halter and lead. Then go find some little kid to sit up on the fence and wave her cap in the air as you change eyes. You might not want to go straight to the chainsaw, but bring the level of energy up. It might be as simple as someone snapping a folding lawn chair open and shut on one side, then you turn her so they disappear into her blind spot, then reappear on the other side in the other eye. It may turn out she isn't quite as OK with it as you think. If not, take that as a good thing. You have something positive to work on, a definite arrow to show you the way you need to go. When this is OK with no saddle, move on to doing it with her saddled.

I just read my previous note, and realized I made kind of contradictory sentence about saddling, something about "all of this should be done on a halter in the round pen". What I meant was when you do go to saddle her, it should be on the halter in the round pen, not tied to anything, or anywhere she might feel trapped or confined. She should be able to all the other stuff loose, on a lariat or rope, on a halter.

Have fun!

[ponygirl]

Ask yourself have you been sneaking rides on this colt??
Were you sneaking round her not trying to get into trouble??
Have you exposed her to lots of stuff??
Is she a sensitive filly or dull?? When you wake up a dull colt the fun can really start..


Just to get a litte more info in here about the filly. She's a 4yo now... she was backed at age 2 but a very respected trainer around here who trained extensively with Ray Hunt. No blowups no problems, at 3 she was saddled and got on, walked around and thats it. She is very sensitive and responsive to everything, I have not tried to take any rides on her and I believe in a stonger ground foundation. She has played the Parelli 7 games successfully. She has been exposed to everything from popping balloons to tarps to beach balls to gunshots. I havnt a clue why the chainsaw set her off, she is normally only slightly antsy about new things. She is extremely smart, one of these horses who thinks highly of herself, but I feel like once the bond becomes real it will be a strong one, shes got a lot to give.
Thanks for the advice all, it's quite appriciated!

[COIN]

You might try lying her down and then petting her all over. So even in a vunerable position she sees you are not trying to attack or hurt her. It takes some patients and experience to get a horse on the ground but it changes their attitude quite quickly.

[ponygirl]

You might try lying her down and then petting her all over. So even in a vunerable position she sees you are not trying to attack or hurt her. It takes some patients and experience to get a horse on the ground but it changes their attitude quite quickly.

COIN, how do you suggest to get her lying down... what techniques do you use to build to this? Anyone else? I dont think I would try this for a bit, given how cross she is with me, but I'd liek to try it after working through some issues in the round pen... Thanks!

Also thjank you Two Cents for the advice on changing eyes, I will get back to the drawing board as I think you are right... despite working through it, it may have been lurking below the surface and I negelected to see it...

[clk]

Heavens to Betsy...

Forcing a horse down has it's place. Only by a professional, only as a last resort, and only for a rank animal who might hurt someone.

Hope I am not offending, but forcing this is not unlike a mental rape. You often will get the horse to submit, but you pay a price. A heavy price.

You can kill a fly with a cannonball, but that doesn't mean that's how you ought to do it.

For a frightened baby?

No. This situation is not anywhere near there.

CK

[COIN]

clk, it is not mental rape, it is an exercise in trust that works very well when done appropriately. I have used it several times on horses you can't get through to, the ones who won't give you their eye, shoulders etc. It does two things 1.) Places the animal in a very vunerable position and shows them you will not take advantage of them. 2.) It gets respect because you took them to a "bad" place and out of it again without getting them hurt. So the exercise builds trust and respect.

Pony, it will take a couple of people and it might be a bit of a fight but you will see an instant change in the animal. You would use a halter and a foot rope. It is very difficult to explain in words.

I have a 4 yo mare beautiful specimen of horse flesh. When I started her it was a challenge. We never could get her to face up and she bucked every time she was saddled. We spent a week working with her trying to overcome these obstacles and the gentlemen teaching the clinic suggested we lay her down. She was a doll after that and has become my #1 horse. We have had to lay her down a couple of times since then as she goes back to bucking when saddled. Just to clarify, this horse would only buck when saddled, and has only bucked three times with someone in the saddle, the first ride and twice when she was pretty fresh. She wasn't a people hating monster, she is slightly dangerous because she hurt my faucet during one of her sprees. I hated watching do it but have done it myself many times. The price you pay may be having to rethink your ideals.

[clk]

Coin wrote:

it is an exercise in trust that works very well when done appropriately....

I'd argue that it is not an exercise in trust. It is a demonstration of dominance, unequivocal dominance. BUT...

I will agree that it works very well when done appropriately. I just think that the folks that can do it appropriately and without damaging the inside or outside of a horse are few and far in between. I don't know you, and what level you are at, but this is NOT stuff for anyone who is even still just a little green.

I'm glad you think it's hard to watch. There is a time and a place for everything. Based on what Ponygirl wrote. I think she ain't even close to needing this.

But that's my opinion, and your are certainly entitled to yours. I have no doubt both of our hearts are in the right place. But I think I am right :)

[doma vaquera]

Not always is laying a horse down a bad thing and not always is it for the rank horses. Sometimes it can be used in a good way to show the horse that being in a position where they are helpless is not a bad deal. Do I recommend to do it all the time and on every horse - oh no. And I agree to definitely get good help from someone who knows how to do it right. They will also be able to tell you if that horse is a candidate.

I would have to disagree with the "mental rape" in all cases. I have been involved where we had to lay down an aggressive stallion a few times to get him where he was on the payroll. That was more of a mental rape and it took an aggressive horse to where he was sweet and gentle and able to do the work that was required of him for the last 20 years. But then I see Richard Caldwell lay his horse Pedro down and it is not mental rape at all. Granted, Pedro was taught, in steps, and a willing partner in the training. So maybe that is the clue with this little horse. Richard taught his horse to lay down for a personal reason. But maybe teaching this horse the same thing would be a way of changing direction with her and a way of softening her and getting her mind to realize that she can give you her ultimate trust and be ok.

Many different ways of looking at this. So do you lay the horse down where you're taking options away and the horse goes down no matter what? Or do you train the horse to lay down in increments and not only get a huge trust handed to you but have a cool trick too (just kidding about the "trick" part all!). Completely up to you, maybe you even choose to avoid laying down altogether.

[clk]

I agree... if you train a horse to lay down, that is a completely different beast than forcing one. That is an exercise in trust. I also think there are better ways to demonstrate trust, but I've seen plenty of horses trained to lay down that had no problem at all with it.

And I apologize Coin, from what you wrote, I took it to mean you would lay her down, against her will, by force if nessecary.

I don't think there are absolutes in any of this horsemanship stuff. And I am still have plenty of green streaks in me. But I wouldn't use this technique on a young horse unless all else had already failed.

[Sue]

Personally, I don't think ponygirls little horse is at a point where she needs to be laid down. She had a bad wreck and scared herself. Things happen, sometimes in our control, sometimes not... it doesn't matter at this point.

Its a useful tool, but not one to be take lightly. IMO, you are forcing the horse is not a submissive posture, but one where he basically gives up his right to live. Thats not how horses submit in their social structure. Dogs do, not horses. Totally different animal.

He does, of course lay down to take a nap sometimes, but only of his own will, and when entirely secure in his surroundings. I agree with using it for rank broncy ones that need to have their world rocked. I've done it myself... and felt like it was a situation - and particular set of circumstances to that horse - where it was warranted. I've also had horses scare the bejeesus out of themselves like Ponygirls horse, where it was definitely NOT what was needed.

This in NO PLACE occurs in the horse's inborn frame of reference to be forced to the ground except right before death. Is this the next place a young horse thats a little freaked out should be forced into?

Can horses be taught to be okay with it? Obviously, as with Mr. Caldwells horse or trick horses. (I am not equating the two) And some are more inclined to be okay with laying down. Some REALLY might not be okay with it. I'm with clk on this.

[COIN]

To each their own, it was a suggestion to add to the possibilities for direction on this horse. It wasn't meant to be the be all end all for this horse's issues. Just one more tool in the tool box.

[clk]

Understood Coin.

Different perspectives is why folks come in here. I appreciate you sharing yours.

I figured out a long time ago just because I have a strong opinion, it doesn't mean I am right.

Well except for this case. (Just kidding).

Good Luck with your filly Ponygirl.

[ponygirl]

I guess I was more interested in how to train her to lay down and feel comfortable enough to do that with me. Any input on trainer her down would be great. I wont force a horse down. I'm still a bit of a youngun (25) and despite the nice amount of experience I have in those years, I am still learning. I don't think its approporiate time in my career for me to attempt this. I've worked with far more messed up horses than this (think abused wild mustangs) without forcing them down and had wonderful results. Hopefully I can learn the technique properly one day but at this point I don't think its the way to go. My lack of knowledge might lead to a true disaster. I guess what concerned me in this case was that the horse is now associating me specifically with the problem. I'm used to dealing with horses that have been done wrong by someone else...

I would say the filly is far from dangerous at this point. She is independant and smart and challenging (but hey thats the best kind no?) and I certainly take it to her every once in a while to show her that I'm the top dog in the pen, but she usually responds to these few and far between struggles readily. She puts up her argument but generally backs down and becomes quite calm when she realizes she cant win. After this unfortunate saddle slip and buck episode I think shes simply scared and lost a bit of the rose colored glasses through which she viewed the world and humans... I had been thinking that reapplying a foundation on her and rebuilding trust the old-fashioned-time-consuming-one-lesson-at-a-time way is the way to go.. seems like most here agree... I'll be working her tomorrow for the first time since the accident, I'll post on how it goes. Thank you all for your varied input!

[Titania]

Ponygirl, i think you can take it from me, that she will forgive you. I've messed up plenty and my horses forgive me. I understand where you are coming from, it's hard for me to accept anything less than perfect. You want the best for them, if you've been honest with them and tried with them, they will know that.

I took my "bombproof" horse past chainsaws, barking dogs, motocycles and all sorts of odd things and you know what made him come unglued? Twenty kids celebrating a birthday running down the road to see the horsey, and a llama. The kids he got over...the Llama not so much :) You'll never prepare them for everything they will meet in life. And you can't beat yourself up when things get a bit crazy.

And just b/c you were there during the "attack of the saddle" doesn't mean that she won't trust you again. In any case, I truly believe horses know when you are sorry. Just apologize and then like TC and Reata said, forget it and move on.

having a saddle roll is not the end of the world and it certainly wont undo everything if you can give her some good experiences from now on. let us know how it goes! Good luck, and welcome!

[reata]

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[doma vaquera]

Understood Coin.

Different perspectives is why folks come in here. I appreciate you sharing yours.

I figured out a long time ago just because I have a strong opinion, it doesn't mean I am right.

Well except for this case. (Just kidding).

Good Luck with your filly Ponygirl.

Just wanted to thank you for your words clk. I would hope that differing opinions would encourage discussion and not more insults and you have been very graceful.

Excess - I am trying REAL hard here to remember your post and so the hateful words just posted are going to be water off a duck's back. Quack quack! Don't feed the trolls, right? So I won't feed this one.

One little thing - rather than tear down other's posts, could people maybe be constructive and just offer their opinion to the solution? I think that would better serve this board and the people on it.

[clk]

You are quite welcome madam.

I've come to realize self respect and respect for the opinion of others seems to go hand in hand.

Don't be to hard on the filly who gets bothered out of the blue, or folks who get angrier than the situation seems to warrant. Most likely it's not anything about you that has them upset.

And an opinion is an opinion. We are all entitled to our own. It's up to me what I take to heart. And what I don't.

That's the beauty of eclectic... Don't you think? :)

[doma vaquera]

Eclectic . . . . EXACTLY!

How much help could a person get if they got 10 20 30 posts all saying the same thing?

It's great when people offer different ideas. PG - you sound like you've got a head on your shoulders and you know this filly so you will pick and choose the parts that work great for you.

Some of us are just sharing things we've seen or done for various reasons - all to give a fuller plate to work with.

I think COIN and I both made sure to say that our harder suggestions should be under the supervision of a professional because we are aware that beginners read these posts. And COIN's horse was laid down the first time AT A CLINIC - BY THE CLINICIAN.

And shoot - with an opinion and five bucks, you can get a coffee at Starbucks right? :)

[ION]

I have seen horses laid down when they turn into knotheads. The ones I saw it did wonders on their attitude. Kinda like when the old timers would yell whoa and forefoot a horse, they tend to remember things like that. Just my opinion and I am not nor ever want to be a clinician. This is just my opinion so take it for what its worth.

[Scout]

Laying a horse down when it becomes the next right thing to try is no sin in my mind. I've seen it done carefully and thoughtfully. Have seen it really help them to turn a corner for the most part. It's not the first thing I'd suggest trying, but didn't sound to me like anyone was advocating it as a first step. Even having seen it done several times, I know I should not try it myself without competent supervision so completely agree that getting good technical assistance is best.

I think the idea of going back to the beginning and tracking through the steps again makes great sense. When I get stuck with something, I'll step back several steps just to get back to a place where I KNOW we can end on a good note and rebuild on that and to make sure I didn't miss something.

It's a good discussion.

[No Regrets]

You never know Ponygirl this incident may have done more good than harm. Maybe, just maybe she learned that when she stood still the thing she was most afraid of was taken away. Try reinforcing this. Work her till she is soft and light to the halter (more yeilding, changes of direction and changes of pace than miles) use standing still as a reward often. Introduce the saddle pad. Put it on. Remove it when she has stood still for a few moments. Replace it and build on the amount of time that you leave it there.
Repeat with the saddle till she will hapilly stand for that.
Lift the girth through and hold it just enough to see if she reacts. Heres where the real feel comes in. Dont tighten it enough to make her react but take her to her limit and reward he for standing still by removing it again. Repeat as required until you can girth her snug enough to hold every thing in place and she will stand still for it.
Dont try to hold her or make her feel trapped and work in a confident "matter
of fact" type of way. Once you have her comfortable at that point you may decide to move her off a step or two. Take her short and just step her away from you in a small side pass like manner. This should be solid without the saddle first. At least if things go haywire she is moving in the correct direction not to jump on you. Let her stand again if she does not buck. Then ask for a few more steps. Build on this until she will walk a circle around you. Then build on that over a period of however long it takes until you can do all your groundwork saddled. IF she bucks just let her go to the end of the rope, dont fight with her, with the lead rope just follow her around the pen chasing her off you if she gets too close. Some horses buck toward you if they are frightened. They are looking for comfort in you. Dont attempt any of this until your horse really respects you and be careful.
When she has finished bucking finish with a little ground work in either direction unsaddle her and put her away. You might get it sorted in 1 session or a few but you will get it sorted. Be patient, strong and confident you will win in the end. Oh and dont fight with her as she is bigger than you.