Do you make??? :eek:

[reata]

"We cannot MAKE a horse do anything he doesnt want to do" RH

We can encourage him to do things we would like him to do but we cannot MAKE him ..
I was always one to try and MAKE my horse do as I wished.. MAKE him walk.. MAKE him trot.. MAKE him canter. MAKE him stop. MAKE him jump...MAKE him go in the Horse Trailer..
He usually did what I was MAKING him but he was never soft, never a willing partner..
Because I can't MAKE him do anything he really does not want to do, I have taken the word MAKE out of my thinking with horses.
Taking the word out of your head and replacing it with a softer word like " ask" or "encourage" or "see if" changes your approach to the horse. You can "ask" a lot softer than you can MAKE. You stop trying to force the horse and that changes you.. The horse can feel that change.. he can feel the shift in your mind set and its a more agreeable thing to him ..he feels like he has a choice and he appreciates it ..

"Your not trying to catch your horse your getting him ready to be caught" RH

[kennewman]

reata, it takes a pretty good person to remind himself his lessons in somebody elses' words. ya just might be a pretty good person. canoeman ps: another way: <http://canecorso.com/lorenzo.htm> see if that'll play, you have all seen it before ,,,just fun guys.
corny? this ole man don't give a damng. corny or not,,, please enjoy.....canoeman

[reata]

Canoeman, Thanks for that link, it did work .. I have seen it before..but its still amazing..
I'm not a good person But I'm trying to improve.. :eek:
I have a little story to tell you about Trick training horses.. Like the ones in the video ..
Last weekend I caught up with some real good friends that I have not seen for a couple of years.. The guy had been accepted to work and study with a world renown Aussie Trick Trainer (Heath H)..He has spent a few week long sessions with him in the last 12 months..learning.. and was keen to tell me all about what he has learned knowing I have a great interest in Good Horsemanship. Sadly not much of what he told me I could relate to my horsemanship .. In fact talking to him is what inspired me to post what I posted above.. The style of trick training is based on force and intimidation, The first thing they get the horse to do is to submit itself and that starts with bowing.. Most horses are willing to help out but my friend did say that some horses are tough and much force is needed.. Whips are used to Cue the horse.. but the horses are trained to do the tricks with the lightest of cues.. But they are still cues.. Still tricks..
Horses rear up and strike out at the whip ..They will come running ears flat back and skid to a halt at the guys feet.. He can send them out and around at liberty and jump stuff to a whip cue.. I asked him about feel and asking the horse to do something with just your body language and he gave me a blank stare!! and said nope.. its all cues!!
I have no idea how Lorenzo trains his horses.. I did see some ears back and some whips..

Canoeman your signature line is "leave them with their dignity" I think I would rather not train my horses to do tricks and hopefully leave them with their dignity ..
But I did enjoy the Video .. I'm hoping Lorenzo has worked out a system between Feel and cues!!:-)

[kennewman]

reata and others, being raised in and around the show biz world does not in the slightest stretch of imagination create any of us into being one of ''them''. however when this kid was 6yr old or so it was time to pay the mortgage, so daddy got me fixed up with a little shetland monster and a wonderful trick trainer, mr. tom hunt. we went along for a couple years and many [act]s. the little son of a gun, ''tony'' the pony, tore the house down with his tricks and act. this kid would crack his little australian bull whips and lay out a couple fancy catches, all to the good, except that little horse would buck me offf,,, rear and fall over and nip every square inch of my body , if'n my dad wasn't around. trick trained to run his whole act in a few seconds, with or without this dumb kid. all you needed was a que ''on'' or que ''off''. mostly when things were right it was a beautiful '''act''' that the none knowing thought was premier. by the time this dumb kid was smart enough help ''tony'' to smooth things out,,,and allow things with the little horse to get better,,,yep you got it, ''little kenny'' out grew that little stinker. still today you see too many trick horses that are extremely que smart, as well as bait [treat] silly. and back stage they will be pleased to eat your face off. careful folks, that is not all of them, just too damng many of them. maybe in redemption mode a few of those soured out horses made their way somehow into my hands for a session or two. they can be soft too!! listen close and hear this,,they can be 'soft' too. it is just very difficult for them to understand. and almost impossible for some the trick act people. again ., please follow that all are NOT the idiots we sometimes portend ''them peoples'' to be. [one quick disclaimer here, my dad would 'never' allow a biscuit treat or some such treat into our horseworld] some of you might not like this story, and maybe not be able to understand it at all, that is ok with me, however it is kinda fun to rethink about tony the pony and some of our good times. kornY??, yup,,,that is ok. have fun with your horses guys, canoeman

[Mulie]

Well, these might be stupid questions, but I'll ask them anyway. What makes something a "trick" versus some of the other things we might ask our horses to do? I guess as humans I know we have some things we classify as "tricks" but does the horse feel a difference? And then my other question is what makes something a "cue" versus asking with feel?
I taught my mule to get on a pedestal. I guess that probably qualifies as a "trick". so when I ask her to get on it I just point to it and kind of indicate with my body language that's where I'd like her to go. Is that a "cue"? Maybe it's just semantics? Or is there something more deep about the difference? I might mention that she seems to really enjoy doing it.
This also made me think of a video I watched of horses that had been clicker trained. They certainly had not been abused in any way, but there was something really disconcerting about their demeanor. Not sure I can describe it, but it just made me uncomfortable.

[FrancaV]

I think you can already see the difference between "tricks" and other things we ask ... whatever it was you noticed with the horse that had been clicker trained was probably "it". It's an automatic, sort of reactive thing - this "cue" (which could be a voice command or a movement, or a sound) means to do a particular thing. The animal is looking for the "cue" and there's no "feel" involved. The person's body language and intention is irrelevant. If the animal wants the reward he'll do it whether he feels good about doing it or not. Once the animal learns the response that goes with a particular "cue" he doesn't really need to think - it's memorized.

All that said, I think there are some people who get their animals to do some "tricks" through feel. Standing on a pedestal could be like part of a "job" to your mule. The two of you are doing stuff together and she goes where you ask. It's not the same as standing in the center of a ring, saying "pedestal" (for example) and having an animal go stand on the pedestal in response to the word cue. An extreme example of trick training would be circus type tricks with big cats, where I think it's pretty clear there's no true "feel" going on.

Does that make any sense at all? LOL

[Mulie]

Yes, that helps Franca I think I see what you mean and I understand that difference. I'm starting to think in terms of following a partner in dancing as opposed to doing a specific routine. Or maybe musicians playing together and improvising or playing with the dynamics of the piece on the basis of feel between them.

[FrancaV]

The dancing partners analogy always works well for me. Especially if I imagine the dancers with tape over their mouths. :D I was at a concert Saturday night with "Sue", another member here, and we decided that musicians jamming must have "feel" also!

[Mulie]

I used to play in several different bands and also had lots of opportunity for jamming. Some musicians definitely have "feel" and others.....not so much. When things are working and everybodys in the groove it's just like a nice ride on your mule.

[reata]

Good discussion girls..
I don't like clicker training..BUT I think it could help to bring some really troubled horses around to looking for the human for support..(help out when the human is lost) I have never used it ..But having an open mind, it may be something I would use when every thing else has not worked..
I would rather try to use feel with my horses..something that all horses understand, if their minds have not been shut down by people with NO FEEL.
Some horses are tough and strong minded and will challenge your feel, "your not getting MY feet"!!! LOL they are the fun ones.. the look on their faces when they finally understand.
"Oh that's all you wanted me to do .. I CAN do that!!"
A lot of the liberty and on line stuff we do with our horses borders on "Tricks" and I'm sure a lot of the Trick horse stuff borders on Feel..Most of my horses will stand on a pedestal and couple will bow..most of them I can send out at liberty and they will pop over a cavaletti and come back and stand by me ..
LOL but they have a choice and sometimes they choose to P## OFF. LOL They do not get punished for this.. What for??? It was because of my lack of feel for the horse that he chose to do something else..
I don't have a lot of cues in my bag of horsey gear, I try to use my feel to the best of my ability..I try to be consistent and reward the slightest try ..
Canoeman says " Leave them with their dignity" and when I'm with my horses that is what I try to do ..

[rsandi5218]

I read one time, "nothing forced can be beautiful".

Randy

[Titania]

ain't that the truth...:)

[WashoeKat]

When I dance, there is a whole lot of "cueing" going on. It may be extremely subtle, well below the conscience level, but it is none the less a "cue". What I think we are talking about here is the attitude behind the cue, as Reata started this thread. Is it "you are going to do this or else" with force to back it up or a connection of body/minds?

Same thing with "tricks", aka when done properly Haute Ecole, but how the horse is taught and the reason the horse does what it does. Is it fear? Or enjoyment? OR? Our horses love to mount the pedestal, they do it all the time when we aren't even around.

[Titania]

well put kat. Reata - what you say reminds me a lot of my sorrel QH and me.

i had a surly sorrel QH. Mr. no personality unless it was earsback or he was working. he really wanted nothing to do with anyone on the ground, even pasture mates. He'd go through the motions with lackluster, even grunting if you asked for just a little bit more. And i didn't know much about feel or how to help him.

The only thing that motivated him on the ground was food. he became a puppy anytime someone brought him a carrot/apple/etc... So i decided to clicker train him. i don't know what made me think this was a good idea. I had no experience with it, nor had i ever seen it done. i just knew it was a good choice with THIS horse. But when i hear your description i think - yes that's mac and me.

anyway,I taught him how to fetch his halter, bow, shake, high five, hug and kiss. At first my instructor was mad at me. She said that i would spoil him or ruin him or "i wouldn't leave him with his dignity". but in the end when our riding and communication improved and she apologized. Performing these tricks made him happy and excited. in the end no treats were needed. he performed out of sheer enjoyment, i understood him better, and it improved every aspect of our time together.

i still don't think i truly understand what that change was or why that choice was the right one. but i'm sure glad i gave it a try. it taught me a TON about feel and really opened up our communication.