A question about Bits.....

[MysteRIOusDancer]

This is a very long post, and part story part question, but I don't know how to pose my question without first explaining my horse!! This maybe to complicated for anyone to answer, but I am looking for suggestions all the same, first here's is a bit about my bit problem!


I own a 16 year old rescued Anglo-arabian gelding. When I first encountered him two years ago he had been bought by a woman who had never even sat on a horse she just thought they were very pretty and having inherited some money went out and bought the first one she saw.

When he arrived on my parents farm (they own a boarding facility in NE FL) he had a terrible reputation, he'd broken three different girls arms; he reared constantly undersaddle and was labeled as 'crazy' and 'unpredictable'. Everytime we spoke to another horse person in our town they would say; 'Oh he's at your farm!? BeCareful! I heard this about him!' Needless to say the lady that had purchased him was NOT riding him; only standing at the fence feeding him cookies (when she remembered she owned a horse at all and came to the barn.)

It was suggested that since I didn't own a horse at the time that I make him into a 'project horse' and see if some saddle time could not only get some of his energy out (a bored-hyper-active arabian is never a good thing!) but possibly fix some of these problems so his owner wouldn't be afraid of him and might actually try riding him, or even leading him.

My first ride was one I will never forget not because he was ill behaved but because it only took about 5 minutes to discover why this horse that was the first to the fence to greet you, who loved to be scratched and petted was labeled as a 'human-hater!'.

The minute I swung my leg over his back I expected a fight, when none came I asked him to move forward which he did with the lightest pressure; it was when I took up any contact with the bit that he immediatly began posturing to rear, taking my hands out of his face completely and asking for him to move forward-not up, worked after a few tense moments. But each time the bit was contacted he immediatly began trying to rear. Having never ridden a horse western (I grew up riding English) a had an idea of what the problem might be and after jumping off, removing the bridle (in the middle of the arena much to my mother's dismay "He's going to run away!") I put my finger inside his mouth and pressed against the roof of his mouth lightly.....The second I did this he threw his head and ran backwards.....part of my suspicions were confirmed; after sending for an english bit (a full-cheek snaffle that I used to train my previous horse in) I re-mounted and taking up contact on the bit found a horse that chewed quite a bit; but there was no rearing! In Fact; The bit he was ridden in at the previous stable was the same one that he had always been ridden in; they'd sold all his tack each time the horse had been sold!!! His bit, bridle, saddle; everything when she bought him Effectively selling their WHOLE problem instead of looking for a solution! As stated prevously I know NOTHING about western bits, this was a single peice of iron with a port in the center (the part that was hitting his palate and causing him pain) and two five inch drops on the side; I assume for leverage in getting a headset. (if this bit has a name please someone tell me, I always feel silly when I have to describe it! lol)


That was two years ago, the lady who had purchased him never rode him; and when her money ran out she stopped paying her bills and eventually signed him over to us. I have been riding him ever since and he has never reared, bucked, or done anything 'mean' or 'evil', he has competed at some local shows, does 50 mile endurance rides without ever seeming tired, and has started on some lower-level dressage; he has come a long way from the horse that knew less then a two year old when I started working with him!

However, he still chews his bit, often constantly and I often wonder if there is a better bit out there that would help with this; he is still being ridden in a Full-Cheek snaffle, it has a curved mouth peice, and what I have heard called a 'french link' but is really just a third link in the center of the bit which keeps it from touching the roof of his mouth.

I have considered rubber covered bits, and ones with low rises--but not Ports! to get the bit off his tongue but I don't know if this would correct the problem.

Any suggestions? I'm sorry my post is so long! But this horse is very special to me, and I think it's important for people to see the whole picture when making decisions; or suggestions. And I suppose the most important part of my story is to remind people that there are no bad horses! Only people that dont know how to listen!

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l171/KadynWrites/HorsePicturesClare014.jpg

A picture of Mysterious Dancer taken last summer; of the hundreds I have this is my favorite picture.

[Titania]

I'm no expert so I won't try, But say Kudos to you for finally listening to him!!

Maybe take him to a bosal? But if he is responding in the snaffle I'd stay with the snaffle. maybe a thicker snaffle or something that has a roller or something for himto play with if he is nervous. a french link has two breaks in it and is meant to prevent the bit from fully collapsing onthe horses bars. it will still touch the pallete. It is considered more mild than a snaffle especially with inexperienced or harsh hands. I had a mare that the kids used a french link on she absolutely could not stand the nutcracker action of any snaffle, when the kids were trying to learn. a french link was a good compromise.

There are much more knowledgeable people than I, but maybe these questions can help?

Does he take the bit in his teeth? or more him tounge around?
Ever put his tounge over the bit? How is he when you take up contact? throw his head? dive down?

Do you have pic of him in gear? he's very pretty.

On the "western" bit Were the shanks (the long pieces) curved? or straight? can you post a pic of it? there are SO many variations.

[AWSpinks]

I don't think it was so much just the bit. I think it was that the horse didn't understand what was being asked with that bit and found a release when he reared and the rider quit.

Shanked western bits are for horses that have been properly prepared for them. We western riders all have our own preferred process. It is hard to say what exactly what kind of bit you have without seeing it. I am willing to bet that it is some cheap "everyone has one bits" that was purchased at some feed store with a tack department.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with riding in a snaffle of whatever flavor forever. As for chewing on it, well it sounds like it is a pretty good habit by now. Find something for the horse to do with his feet when he starts to chew. When he stops you stop. It might take awhile but be consistent. It is just the energy coming out. To the horse it seems like a good place to put it since that is where "trouble" comes from. As you probably know you aren't going to get anywhere "punishing" the horse for it but maybe you can find something else for him to do.

[Two Cents]

Hi!

Hey AW, I just saw the photos of your Dad and his team. I guess we know where you got the horse bug. And that is a cool bale feeder. You are a good son.

As for your gelding.....I think AW is on target. The answer to most every horse problem is almost always down there in the feet. I'm a little concerned that with this guy's age and length of experience with being either afraid of or confused by the bit, he might not get over it. Even if you do everything exactly right, he may spend his whole life anticipating that moment when the pain or fear or confusion hits again. Kind of like when you were a kid staying up late watching scary movies....it isn't really the scary thing that gets you, it is the build-up to it. You're scared you're going to be scared, you know it's coming sooner or later, you just don't know when or where. So, how to help him?

Start at the start. It's quite likely he never had the opportunity to learn the very basics. Go back to a halter and lead rope, or a round pen. Make sure you establish the idea that a feel down the rope has something to do with the feet. Get a copy of Buck Brannaman's Groundwork video and book. Watch it, read it, look for the little things. Then go out and give it a try. Struggle, fail, try again. Get things working until you can move all four feet all four directions with a very subtle change in your body or feel down the rope, nice fluid movements and flexions and transitions.

If you want to stay with a bit, that's fine. Make sure it is a nice, smooth snaffle. Use only one rein at a time, never both at the same time. Get all the same movements going for you that you did on the ground. The whole idea of the groundwork is to give him something to relate back to that already makes sense to him. The bit is only there to help you communicate your intentions to the horse. Whenever you feel he understands your intention or idea, release. When he knows what to do with his feet, his mouth will be quiet. This might take a day or a year.

I think if he were my horse, I would go to a hackamore with him. You can teach him all the same things, go everywhere and do everything you would have done in the snaffle. But you take away the connection in his mind to that other life he had before he came to live with you. I never learned to like scary movies. Still don't. I'd rather not watch. He might feel pretty relieved if you just turn off that TV.

If you're in NC, you might see if you can find Bill Scott. You and your horse might really enjoy learning from him. He is a fine horseman and a fine man.

[Mares Tales]

I can not offer any better advice than what has already been said, they pretty well covered it....excellent posts.

I have to emphasize what AW said ........ "Find something for the horse to do with his feet when he starts to chew."

What I will say is........ there are different ways a horse chews that will tell you where his mind is at and how comfortable he feels about the situation. If he just chews gently, opening and closing his mouth in a contented way, using his tongue, then that is called "working his mouth" and that`s a good thing. It is mental suppling. Horses will work their mouth when they "get something" you have asked, when they have figured it out or mentally DIGESTED a thought. It shows their mind is working. We watch for licking and chewing when we work horses in the roundpen or on the lead to see where they are at mentally, it`s just one of the many signs you look for. Horses will clamp their jaws when there is a brace but a horse that has turned loose to us has let go in the jaw and the poll, the ribcage, all the way down to it`s FEET and back up again to its jaw/mouth.

Then there is the dreaded OTHER kind of chewing .........the kind that says "I don`t want to be here, I`d rather be anywhere else." This Kind of chewing comes very close to the horse feeling that things are so bad that he`s going to have to have an "outa body experience." This kind of chewing or chomping is like a mantra that a horse does when they DON`T get it and they don`t know what else to do, they shut down, they leave you mentally, in degrees, either partially or totally. It`s kind of like us chewing our nails;....we focus on something else because its hard to deal with the stressful thing that confronts us. This kind of chewing is the horse leaving us mentally and that of course is not what we want. The solution if there is going to be one, is to get to the feet so that the horse can feel good and that looseness can travel all the way up through the horse to its jaw/mouth and back down to his feet again. "From the feet to the mind."

Knowing which kind of chewing it is can make a big difference on what kind of approach a person will want to use. Horses can obviously brace their jaw when they chew, they can rythmically chomp excitedly, they can suck their tongues up in their throat and just feel stiff in the poll but the mouth feels quiet but like a rock and the rider thinks they are getting by. They can chomp so hard that their feet get totally stuck and there is no place to go but up, so it`s a matter of reading your horse and "feeling" what the horse is feeling, putting yourself in his place to figure him out.

I would say from your horses history that it is the latter. You did a wise thing by changing bits and it definately helped but...having something in your horses mouth, anything put there by a human, brings back some old fears of getting hurt so you will have to work through that if you want to get your horse more sure. The best way to do that is to start from the ground like has already been stated in the two previous posts. "From the feet to the mind" and watching signs that the horse is letting go; to trust in another degree from where he was before. You gain the horses confidence from the ground up.

You have done a great job so far and probably saved this horse.........we all know where horses with "reputations" end up. When the horse was bucking people off and rearing he was just doing what he thought he needed to do to save himself. Then along came You with some "feel" willing to make some changes to fit the horse but your horse is telling you that you may not be done yet and of course you know that, and that`s why you are here trying to find some ideas on how to help him.

We are glad you came, WELCOME.

[MysteRIOusDancer]

Thank you everyone for your responses I appreciate everyones feedback!

I think in regards to the types of chewing as mentioned I have seen two different depending on our activities at the time.

I know I have seen the 'excited' chewing action; when we are our on an endurance ride and he wants to be in the front he will often chomp away even when the group is all standing still together he will chomp away, ears pricked forward, often pawing the ground if we stand for what he thinks is too long; it's the ears and the pawing and bright eyes, the enjoyment he always shows when we are out on a race; or even training alone in the forest that makes me sure this is a if not a happy activity an 'excited' and 'lets go!' type of signal. My sisters horse just wants to go back to the barn but he always seems to want to explore; perhaps that is too human a trait to give him; but each time we pass a new trial he'll swing his head to look and if I don't steer him he'll often chose the path we've never taken before; or one we haven't taken in a while; it's almost like he's thinking 'what's this way? lets go look!'

The arena chewing is different, he has never snatched the bit, or held it in his teeth, and I've never seen him put his tongue over the bit or stick his tongue out. His ears are never pined back, and he never throws his head; or shakes his head. After two years of working with him he usually carries himself with an english pleasure headset, breaking at the poll--though his neck always has a bit of a curve to it--I always figured it was the arabian in him and it doesn't bother me as I want a well rounded horse, not a cookie-cutter-nut-job. I haven't seen any 'acting out', just the chewing. He doesn't look anxious to me when he does it....I have seen him afraid of things (the first time he saw a turnout blanket!! OMG!)

It is almost a methodical type of chewing....I guess I would call it. He doesn't always do it, but I can gaurentee that at least twice in a lesson he will do at least five minutes of chewing then stop again....sometimes he does it the whole lesson.... He bends in both directions, spins on his haunches and forehand, moves in a nice rounded frame, pushes from his hind end, extends his trot and collects, will jump anything you point it at; with absolute glee....but the chewing....

I have ridden him in the round pen in a halter and he does not display the chewing behavior then...he also doesnt show it on the lounge line (also done in a halter not a bridle). I have never had any trouble putting on his bridle he will open his mouth the minute the bit touches his lips, and he'll even hold the bit sometimes when you take the bridle off (I always hold the bridle loosely close to him until he drops it, never snatching it off as I dont want to hurt his mouth!)

If this is a normal behavior then I am MORE then happy to let him chew away! I'd even like to get him one of those bits that has the toy ring, or circle (as mentioned above) so he can amuse himself....I take him to hunter shows with a foot long mane, and a tail that touches the ground I dont really care if he doesn't look like other show horses as long as he's happy.

But I'm worried I'm missing something....

I only have one picture of us undersaddle I dont think it will help much because he's facing the camera, not in profile and he's not at work, just standing....it is difficult to take pictures of yourself when you're the one riding!

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l171/KadynWrites/r00huntershow.jpg

he's also really fuzzy! LOL

[Titania]

Hey! We had a horse like this. You could Try a copper mouth piece that tastes good. or a snaffle with a copper roller which will act like kind of like that french link you have.

if he's not anxious about it i wouldn't worry.

My friend had a rope horse that would chomp the bit. He looks nervous and felt nervous. She worked on it and now he occasionally still plays with the bit, but he's not nervous and doesn't act nervous. He picks it up in his teeth and sucks on it as opposed to looking like one of those wind up teeth things that hop across the table...lol, know what I mean?

You two look great together, he seems really tuned into you, theres a nice loose rein in your left hand and he is nicely bent around. Really pretty picture.

BTW - when was the last time his teeth were floated? some times if there is a hook on one of the premolars they will do that too.

[MysteRIOusDancer]

BTW - when was the last time his teeth were floated? some times if there is a hook on one of the premolars they will do that too.


They were checked about a week after I first rode him, and the vet checks him bi-yearly on her visits to the farm...I have actually not had to float his teeth yet, he eats a lot of natural grain with his pellets and gets a mix of coastal and peanut hay (quite a bit of it despite the hay shortage, my mother is determined to make him fat I think) he also gets grass turnout daily for about 4-6 hours depending on the heat/rain/etc, they seem to wear pretty evenly.

I have heard that copper is 'sweet', but having never run around with metal in my mouth.....except for maybe a penny or two as a kid....(I shudder at the germs I must have consumed E-gads!) Would a Copper bit be better then one of those rubber covered bits that's supposed to be 'apple' or 'peppermint' flavored?