Anyone here do PNH or like the PBR!! [Archive] - Eclectic Horseman Magazine: Just What Works!

Excess

03-25-2007, 09:03 AM

LOLOL I haven't even heard of telescope whips. Sounds cool. I'm glad Red and Reata got on this subject. I wanted to comment on PNH but wanted to see which way the wind blowed first. I like that Reata or Red brought up "just what works" because PNH certainly did NOT work with Speedy. He absolutely hated it all. Especially the "circle game" which my trainer has said is one of the worst games of all time since you stand in the middle while a horse goes around in circles around you and you just stand there. To quote her "what does that teach the horse?" She also has said she has had to fix more PNH and Lyons horses than any other horse. Almost every PNH horse I've seen looks absolutely miserable and bored to tears with the games. They have this look on their face of "WHY Mom WHY! UGH this is so boring. I'm going to go behind the barn and shoot myself after we're done if I see that carrot stick one more time."

For example this:

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is not a happy horse. This is a wonderful horse because he is bored stiff but complying with what Mom wants him to do. There is little to no life in this horse and when he's crossing his haunches he's not even crossing correctly more than half the time.

I think that plenty of other magazines cover PNH pretty thoroughly wheras they don't give enough thought to Buck, Bryan and the others that EH covers. PNH certainly gets enough publicity and noteriaty as it is.

Not saying that PNH is bad for everyone, it just wasn't for me or my horse or most horses that I work with. It doesn't engage them or thier mind enough I think. But like Reata said the GOOD thing about PNH is that it brings people into the world of Natural Horsemanship.

FrancaV

03-25-2007, 01:11 PM

I'm not a PHN fan ... (snip) where is the feel?? Where is the compassion for the horse??
To get what Tom says " A Willing Communication between Horse and Human"
or "True Unity" ya have to dig deeper than PNH!!
JMHO!!!That's MHO, too. ;) I have one friend who got a great start with PNH , moved on, and is doing really well. I have another friend who got started with PNH and kind of got stuck there in the mechanics of it all, so it can be both a good thing and a bad thing, I guess. I do believe that having all the BNTs (Big Name Trainers) of NH out there does increase awareness of another way to work with horses and it helps folks think harder about what sort of relationship they want with their own horses. And because each trainer has a different personality and a different take on the basic idea he (or she) will appeal to different types of people. It might take a Pat Parelli or a Clinton Anderson to pique someone's interest in "natural" horsemanship, but then I'd hope they'd move on from there to something more fulfilling.

I so regret I never got to see Tom Dorrance teach or ride, but I've seen Buck and Ray. I don't think Ray rides much any more, if at all, but he was magic on a horse. When he'd "bring the life up" Ray's movements would be invisible to the human eye but his horse was right with him every second.

FrancaV

03-25-2007, 01:17 PM

Especially the "circle game" which my trainer has said is one of the worst games of all time since you stand in the middle while a horse goes around in circles around you and you just stand there. To quote her "what does that teach the horse?"My trainers have said the same thing! Where's the feel? The horse's brain just checks out. For one thing, I want my horse to be with me - that means when my feet stop, my horse's feet stop, unless I actively ask her to go past me.

Scout

03-25-2007, 04:13 PM

Many years ago, I watched a man who didn't thrive with some clinicians go to Parelli's program and improved substantially in his ability to maneuver and his confidence with his horse. I have the impression that the structure of the program really helped him. So, in fairness, while PP is not a good match for me, his program helped someone who was trying pretty hard to get better with his horse. I watched him at Expo and the Tom Dorrance benefit in Ft. Worth.

reata

03-26-2007, 06:34 AM

" I don't think Ray rides much any more, if at all, but he was magic on a horse. When he'd "bring the life up" Ray's movements would be invisible to the human eye but his horse was right with him every second. "

Oh Franca how true!!! I have been to many RH clinics just to watch him ride!! I have seen him sit on some pretty ordinary horses and by him "just sitting there" see them transform before my eyes.. Its a bugger hes got so old and sick ..He sure was magic..
I bought myself a copy of "Back to the beginning" with Ray working and riding a couple of colts back in the old days. It sure is a good DVD!!
I love his timing and patience with the second horse!! And the expression on the first little fellow is just a classic!!..
Those real good hands sure put a few of the BNT's to shame!!!

LOL I wonder what Ray would do with a telescoping whip.. ROFLOL I sure wouldn't want to ask him...:rolleyes:

cynthia peterson

03-26-2007, 07:54 AM

i think the eclectic horseman magazine has great horsemen (women) and i would love to hear comments from them on what they think of Parelli. i love ray and buck (and most of ray's followers. parelli is really only a ray/dorrance follower who has successfully marketed better then they have). i do like parelli BECAUSE he has put the thought in horse people (many of them new people to horses) to consider the horses's point of veiw. it gives them skills on the ground that flows over to undersaddle, much like ray and tom's way. unfortunately, many "newbies" never get beyound that, and that is where parelli gets all the criticism on. and in some ways, parelli has that coming, as they do not advance to the saddle as fast as they should. i don't think parelli's "old" information (courses, info packs) were structured that way, he started out teaching more saddle work. but, in our new world, of a aging population (perhaps) the market just headed that way for him. he is misunderstand, as many do his program wrong, horses do get bored, but that is not the intent, and done correctly is a beautiful thing to see. you cannot judge a man's program on how people do it wrong. he does give a lot of info lately about that. and he is a master on giving behavior/personality information. odd that people didn't consider that before, or that it was something only special people could get (like ray or buck) when it IS something everyone can understand at least basically. and frankly, it is useful to keep the same ideas in mind with handling people in your life too. what is their side? what's the horse thinking? i know pat is a "showman". some don't like his personality. just as ray hunt is a (shall we say very frank man) man who is straight shooter and upsets sensitive souls, or you like a straight shooter kinda guy, we all pick our teachers.
the circling game? if the horse is taught to "do what i say, untill i say different" is the principle here. you don't chase the horse around like most people's circling game. you don't have the horse circling endlessly. the idea is, "go out there" check in with me, when i say stop, go, come in, watch my body language, (just like they watch the other horses). to send a horse around more times then is needed to get that lesson across is NOT the reason for it, just enough to get the idea. and all the games are based the same. you do not just go do the same game the same way, once it is learned.
i have the ray hunt tom dorrance benifit dvd set (and i do love ray) there is one among many good points that stands out to me. there is a horse tied up and is pacing like horses do. he points out the horse already knows how to put the float in the rope. and really that is all NH clinicians are telling us...use what the horse can already do.

Ash

03-26-2007, 08:21 AM

Cynthia,

Good post. I agree. Buck and Ray's methods could just as easily be misconstrued or messed up, just like this girl in the you tube viddy with her horse. She is being fairly ineffective because she has no energy. I don't think the horse is unhappy -- I think he is just humoring her because some of what she does is silly and careless. He'd probably be happier doing more exciting things, but I don't think he looks unhappy.

When Buck sends his horses around, I do not remember him walking around in a smaller cirlce inside the horse's. I think he centers himself so the horse can establish "float". Correct me if I am wrong. The only difference is that he asks the horse to do more things more often than just standing in the center and letting the rope go over his head.

Ash

Rodeobabe23

03-26-2007, 12:12 PM

Okay well to tell you the truth the circling game is wonderful! all of the 7 games are. Obvioulsy the people you are talking to are not following the program right. And your not teaching the horse anything nor are you trying to its not a horse training program its a people training program. The horse already know how to do everything. We our to become one with our horse. and in order for your horse to have fun you have to have fun! I LOVE PNH AND ALWAYS WILL NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS!

LOLOL I haven't even heard of telescope whips. Sounds cool. I'm glad Red and Reata got on this subject. I wanted to comment on PNH but wanted to see which way the wind blowed first. I like that Reata or Red brought up "just what works" because PNH certainly did NOT work with Speedy. He absolutely hated it all. Especially the "circle game" which my trainer has said is one of the worst games of all time since you stand in the middle while a horse goes around in circles around you and you just stand there. To quote her "what does that teach the horse?" She also has said she has had to fix more PNH and Lyons horses than any other horse. Almost every PNH horse I've seen looks absolutely miserable and bored to tears with the games. They have this look on their face of "WHY Mom WHY! UGH this is so boring. I'm going to go behind the barn and shoot myself after we're done if I see that carrot stick one more time." For example this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ukspOPvtH8 is not a happy horse. This is a wonderful horse because he is bored stiff but complying with what Mom wants him to do. There is little to no life in this horse and when he's crossing his haunches he's not even crossing correctly more than half the time.

I think that plenty of other magazines cover PNH pretty thoroughly wheras they don't give enough thought to Buck, Bryan and the others that EH covers. PNH certainly gets enough publicity and noteriaty as it is.

Not saying that PNH is bad for everyone, it just wasn't for me or my horse or most horses that I work with. It doesn't engage them or thier mind enough I think. But like Reata said the GOOD thing about PNH is that it brings people into the world of Natural Horsemanship.

Excess

03-26-2007, 12:44 PM

Okay well to tell you the truth the circling game is wonderful! all of the 7 games are. Obvioulsy the people you are talking to are not following the program right. And your not teaching the horse anything nor are you trying to its not a horse training program its a people training program. The horse already know how to do everything. We our to become one with our horse. and in order for your horse to have fun you have to have fun! I LOVE PNH AND ALWAYS WILL NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE SAYS!

Well Rodeobabe, that's what makes us human. We all have different opinions and we have things that work. You like PNH, I like Buck, Ray, Tom and Bryan. I've dabbled in all of the new-fangled clinicians. I've done Lyons, Anderson, Parelli, Cox. I've bought all their programs. I've bought all of their equipment. I've slaved away with carrot sticks and handy sticks and soldered-shut snaffle bits. And frankly my opinion is that I've wasted my money. And I did do the Parelli programs right. Speedy and I passed Level 2 after I sent in my videos. So don't assume that because someone has an opinion different to yours they don't know what they're talking about.

The one spot-light clinician that I adore is Julie Goodnight. But she has a lot of Californio influence in her training and she tells you not only HOW to do things but WHY and the only equipment she uses that is hers and has her name on it is a ropehalter and lead which is an excellent quality and doesn't have a snap on the end. Nice, heavy rope with good feel. Give me a good rope halter, a wade saddle, balding snaffle bit and a good mane hair mecate any day. Don't show me bouncing balls off horse butts, waving orange sticks while crouching like a hunchback, horses standing on wooden pedestals. Sure showtime is impressive and fun to watch. But I think watching Buck and Bryan work with an untouched wild horse with feel and timing is much more touching and impressive. I'd much rather work with the resources mother nature has given me and learn how to hone those. It's a lifetime journey and one that I will strive do it justice for the rest of my life.

roper

03-27-2007, 05:58 AM

Rodeobabe23

03-27-2007, 09:19 AM

Excess

03-27-2007, 09:38 AM

Its never the horses fault! it is always our fault!!!!

Yeah....our fault that we did PNH in the first place when we should have been doing Vaquero horsemanship all along.

Excess

03-27-2007, 09:39 AM

i've known two card arrying pnh'ers...and both of their horses sent them to the hospital severely injured when the horse got the the chance..."there is a fine line between respect and fear..i don't want my horses to fear me but you better believe they had better respect me"-rh

That's what I've always heard too Roper. My trainer has said she has seen more people get hurt/killed with a PNH and Lyons horse than any other horse. She also said she's had to "fix" more PNH/Lyons horses than any other horse.

cynthia peterson

03-27-2007, 12:32 PM

i'm going to have to say again, you cannot judge a man's program by someone doing it wrong. believe me, if it's parelli, ray hunt, buck, any one's program and the person gets hurt, that person did something wrong. things happen, but parelli does NOT teach you to have a disrespectful horse. that would be insane. in fact, any criticism i hear about any clinician /trainer including parelli alters between the man being too strict or not enough. i will say again, the program is good. the main problem with parelli is there are many "newbies" attracted to it. i say that is a problem, but they have to get help somewhere. and those kind of people will get hurt, have disrespectable horses, are fearful (horses pick that up and use it), don't handle horses correctly. if your core base is that kind of person, your average of problems is going to be high. parelli does teach common sense, things many old timers have known forever, and that is good no matter when they get that information. that said, i don't want you to think parelli IS just newbies, there are many advanced parelli people too. can you get the same information from somewhere else? maybe buck, ray hunt,bryan neubert, mark rashid, i could go on? yes, but somehow parelli seems to hit the right note for a lot of people. i bet everyone here has someone who taught them, maybe even a grandfather, but someone that can point you the right direction is a wonderful thing. i think the thing with parelli is his followers tend to be so thankful (remember when you first learned you could communicate with a horse and get something done) they make others feel that only parelli knows the answers. i hate that type too, but again, you cannot blame a man for someone who does his program wrong.

Ash

03-28-2007, 06:12 AM

I used to use John Lyons all the time on my horses. I do not regret this. My horses are both respectful and a joy to be around.

However, I found holes for in the methods for myself. That's why I moved on. On the same token, the vaquero horse training does not answer all my questions either. That's why you take what you can from a trainer or philosophy, leave the rest, and then move on.

Two Cents

03-28-2007, 10:59 AM

Against my better judgement, I've decided to write in. But then, my better judgement isn't much better than my poor judgement. Hmmmm.

I have a TON of fencing work to do around here. It is my least favorite thing to do in the world. I'd rather go to the dentist. Yet, it has to be done.

Let's say I ask a couple of friends if they might come over, we'll hit it hard, get the fencing done, then take it easy. Let's say they actually take me up on it, show up, work hard, get the job done.

And all the while I've been sitting on the porch in the shade sipping on a beer or two while they work their asses off, in between offering criticisms of how well or how fast they're doing their job. How do suppose they'll feel about that? How receptive do you think they might be next time I call? How willing will they be to truly exert themselves and build a nice, tight, strong fence? "HEY, nobody told you to slow down. Get back to work. NOW!!!" If they had any sense they'd tell me to go straight to hell.

Now consider the circle "game".

Here is a horse being sent around a pen, over and over, around and around. And the object is to not send him any other directions, not to change the feel. But if he slows down or stops or changes directions......it isn't because we messed up. It is all on him. He wasn't trying hard enough. He wasn't being a "Good Boy". He doesn't think of this as a game. And he doesn't see us as a partner or friend. He sees us as a small, mean, petty, ugly bully who can make his life pretty damn miserable whenever we feel like it. This is not a "game" to him. "HEY, nobody told you to slow down. Get back to work. NOW!!!"

The person doesn't even have the decency and respect to exert enough energy to turn his head, move his feet, stay with the horse, supporting him, teaching him, helping him, being a true friend and partner.

Many of the so-called "games" produce exactly that kind of result.

Horses KNOW when they are being treated with mutual trust and respect. They know when they are being used and manipulated. One day, they will decide they have had enough of the "games". It is a true testament to the forgiving nature of horses that more of us don't get our faces kicked in.

FrancaV

03-28-2007, 02:24 PM

OK, this has been my perception of the circle game as well. You get a bored, frustrated, disconnected, "checked-out" horse every time I've ever seen it done. There is no communication between horse and human until the horse does something "wrong". A horse going 'round the maypole, only the maypole has a stick to "explain" to the horse why he should keep moving, all other evidence to the contrary. I want my horse to take direction from me - my whole body - not a stick. She's my "dance partner", not a mechanical toy.

So I really would like to hear someone who has done PNH explain to me how the circle game is done correctly. Because either I've seen it done incorrectly dozens of times or it's just a bad game. Cynthia sort of explained it but it didn't really answer the question for me. There is no communication going on between when the person says "go" and when the person says "stop".

Mulie

03-28-2007, 05:41 PM

I don't really know much about the Parelli stuff. I'd heard of the games and this circle game. I guessed the idea was to teach the horse "responsibility" to stay in a gait. I think the way TwoCents described it was great. I'm thinking if you were working to develop any kind of a feel, that type of thing would sure work in the wrong direction. Calling these things games sort of implies that the horse thinks these are a ton of fun and I've kind of wondered about that.

Excess

03-28-2007, 08:11 PM

Many of the so-called "games" produce exactly that kind of result.

Horses KNOW when they are being treated with mutual trust and respect. They know when they are being used and manipulated. One day, they will decide they have had enough of the "games". It is a true testament to the forgiving nature of horses that more of us don't get our faces kicked in.

Thank you Two Cents. You have said it (of course) more eloquently than I could ever say it. This was exactly what I was trying to say but I couldn't find the words to say it. I didn't want to offend anyone here....

Excess

03-28-2007, 08:31 PM

OK, this has been my perception of the circle game as well. You get a bored, frustrated, disconnected, "checked-out" horse every time I've ever seen it done. So I really would like to hear someone who has done PNH explain to me how the circle game is done correctly.

Franca I'm by no means a Parelli expert. I passed Level 1 and Level 2. I had to send in a video of me and Speedy doing the tasks in each level. Speedy is a smart horse. He has to have his mind engaged. Every video I've seen except ONE which remotely looks like he likes what he's doing

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Most of them like the one I posted earlier and pretty much any other you see a despondent horse.

Speedy on the otherhand was the complete opposite of the despondent horse. He acted out. Big time. Speedy is not a mean horse. There is not a mean bone in his body. But during the circle game he would act out big time. He just didn't get WHY he has to go around in circles. He would kick, buck, rear. Then he'd stop and look at me and ask me why and when I was told to wait and then to flap my carrotstick/string on the ground, he'd act out. That wasn't the right answer. He'd back up. He'd get himself so worked up that it would take FOUR coolers to get him dry after the workout. I stopped Parelli soon after this. Speedy didn't find it fulfilling. And therefore I didn't either. As soon as I stopped Parelli and got a new (vaquero) trainer things improved immediately. Never had an issue like that again. Never have had to use the coolers again. Now I have four coolers I hardly ever use!

rahfie

03-29-2007, 07:47 AM

well, this topic is certainly timely for me and my journey with my horse.

i guess i am what you could call a long-time parelli participant recovering from the orange stick brigade. i spent six years with parelli and my horse, spending lots of money on equipment and several clinics. i've been floating in the second half of "level 3" for a while now, and i find that every passing month i find less and less value in the program.

i blame most of this new awakening on dr. deb and harry whitney, and people i've met associated with them.

the problem with parelli is that it works really well for the human, but not for the horse. the strength of the program is that it helps humans understand that horses are capable of many athletic feats. the problem with parelli is that until one reaches the upper echelons of level three and beyond, the procedures for getting through a "task" are quite rigid. there is no backing down, and the human must "win".

that being said, i think that the program is a good baby start for people to start learning about what a relationship with a horse could be. this, of course, is before one is aware enough to notice the relative unhappiness and boredom expressed by many horses in the program. the danger is that the vast majority of people who begin pnh "quit" before they are done with level two (the corporation has been making steps to solve this by simplifying the "new" level two in relatively quickly attainable steps and tasks, but thereby leaving a HUGE and dangerous gap into level three). they quit for a variety of reasons: they get bored, they get hurt, they don't know where to go next because they can't access an instructor or clinic, they don't understand that to get the most out of the program they'll need direct instruction at some time, and, what i think is a huge problem, the cost of continuing the program to the point one starts to develop some feel is absolutely prohibitive.

all of these factors have, in the last six months, caused a big rift between me and what used to be my good horse-ridin' buddies. no arguments, fights, or tears. just a gradual shift on our parts. i've been heading over here for some time, riding with harry last summer (and this summer again, as well as joe wolter), reading more and more books (not just horsey ones, but lots of philosophy as well), and trusting myself enough that i don't feel compelled to use that darn stick anymore.

the circle game at liberty really hurt my relationship with my horse. she's not a girl with a great puppy-dog sense of trust, and when i was told (in a semi-private lesson with a parelli instructor, no less) to keep her OUT on the circle, and the to FORCE her in via ropes slapping side, well, you can imagine what happened. it took me three years to get her feeling okay in a round pen again. what's funny and strange is that i STILL stuck with the program because i didn't really trust myself to find a better and softer way.

i remember waaaay back to level one, and thinking to myself "why the hell do i have to use this orange stick to make her do things if she'll do it with just my eyes?". if only i'd listened to that little voice then. it's alright, though. i've never felt better than i have this year, letting go of my own prior nature and perogatives in my horse relationships.

the last thing? parelli is the MOST dangerous for people who are competitive, because then it becomes about passing levels, the horse's submission (and parelli-ites will fight me tooth and and nail on this, but it's true. and i will win every time, because i lived it for a long time), and being "better" than the people around you.

too bad, really. parelli works well for lots of people because they're people with agendas and drives and a time limit. parelli doesn't work well for lots of horses becaue they don't care about those things.

redtara

04-01-2007, 10:50 AM

If anyone's got the time, read through these threads, it's quite interesting and a very heated discussion on Natural Horsemanship and and may widen your view on in general.
http://www.themanestreet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41999

Excess

04-01-2007, 04:04 PM

well, this topic is certainly timely for me and my journey with my horse.

Rahfie I wanted to say that your post was wonderful. Thank you so much for posting it. Your opinion was very much appreciated and needed.

Mares Tales

04-01-2007, 07:26 PM

What is fun is when you get to a place in your horsemanship where you can look at the Parelli METHOD (the word METHOD tells you a lot right there) and figure out from Ray Hunts and Tom and Bill Dorrances teachings where all the games and moves and sticks and stuff came from.

Techniques and Methods address the outside of the person and the horse.

I have to admit, they (the Parellis) probably packaged it as well as they could have for the masses but, their method missed one thing, as others have already pointed out, and that is FEEL... you can`t teach FEEL! As a teacher if you want to reach the inside of the pupil and get them to think for themselves then you set it up so the person can find it, just like what we want our horses to do. All horses are different ("come from where the horse is at") and all situations are different ("adjust to fit the situation") so how can you teach by a "technique" or a "method" which by its wording suggests that everything will be predictable and you just follow a list and everything will work out.

FEEL is what all the other true horsemen talk about foremost......."FEEL", and "timing", then "balance"; which encompases the first two. Every one of these seekers of the truth will tell you that the way to becoming a real horseman has to come from within the person and that takes a bit of thought and time. A change on the inside of the person has to happen before they can reach the inside of their horse. It`s a shift in ones thinking which unless you have some special gift which I do not know about, doesn`t come overnite or from following a technique or a method. As Ray has said, and I paraphrase, "It`s not a pill that I can give to you." Horse don`t care about what level you have achieved, thats a human measure, they only care about what you are like on the inside because that is what they FEEL about you. They feel your intent. IMO,The only way to take that mental leap of being with your horse is to BE in the now, and BE humble enough to let go of your own braces and by having a clear idea of what you want to do but by "not being attached too rigidly to the outcome". How easy is THAT? No one can give that to you, you have to find it yourself and that takes some introspection and self discovery.

Flaling a stick around will only get you so far but, if you have made that change on the inside, and know yourself and realize that what you need to do to help the horse is to work on yourself, then you are on your way to changing the way you relate to your horse and your horse will then reflect that.

On a positive note, I think the Parellis have created a lot of interest in this type of horsemanship and people have found out through their advertising that there is a different way than what they were brought up with. Remember what horsemanship was like BEFORE the road shows and RFD-TV? Now what they call Natural Horsemanship is a household word in horse circles. At least peoples interest is being tickled into seeking a different way. Hopefully as people get into it, they find out that true Horsemanship doesn`t have to end with a level.

Sue

04-02-2007, 11:22 AM

I gotta throw in here, and might regret it.

First of all, I am not a purist of any "method" and sure have alot left to learn. My horses tell on me all the time just how much I have left to learn.

I think Parelli filled a void that was existing in the horse world, particularly the novice horse world. The void I am talking about is knowledge. Horses are largely a luxury recreational item for most people, and there is a disconnect- especially in the U.S.- between novice horse owners and classical riding knowledge. Very, very few people are studying the knowledge thats been gained through hundreds of years of horsemanship.

As Americans, or simply modern society, we are always looking for next new, best thing. The new Ipod, the newest innovation in skin care, the latest version of Windows, the coolest new truck, the snazziest training tool for our dog, the most recent drug to make hyper kids in school easier to deal with. Why should we on this board suspect anything different from a professionally marketted miracle training method? People looking for the slickest way to mess with their horses turn on RFD-tv and theres an instant cure for all your horse's problems! Alot like an infomercial. (I am not dogging RFD... in fact I LOVE watching it... finally something good on the telly)

As someone who grew up with formal instruction that taught me such things as Parelli doesn't teach... different styles of riding, parts of the horse, how to clean bridles, what a proper fitting saddle is, correct equitation, how to care for horses day to day, the name of every lameness imaginable under the sun... it gets on my nerves a little. I see so much of the problems and challenges that people go to Parelli with as simple ABSENCE of basic horsemanship skills. No mystery there. Thats the void, IMO.

For myself, that education was built on when I picked up Ray Hunt's book 15 years ago. I was searching for knowledge again...

Look at it from the perspective of someone who hasn't studied horsemanship indepth for years. How would they know differently? After all, the man can jump his horse over a picnic table with no bridle and saddle, he must be the real thing. He must be good... he has his own clothing line, jewelry line, entire tack system... and you can buy it all with the Pat Parelli credit card!

I'll quit blathering on.

Smackdab

04-02-2007, 12:59 PM

[QUOTE=Sue;333]I gotta throw in here, and might regret it.

First of all, I am not a purist of any "method" and sure have alot left to learn. My horses tell on me all the time just how much I have left to learn.

I think Parelli filled a void that was existing in the horse world, particularly the novice horse world. The void I am talking about is knowledge.

I completetly agree with this. There are so many people searching and Parelli makes them feel a part of something. I personally got my first taste of horsemanship from John Lyons, who I plainly see now as totally scratching the surface. But it was that taste that led me to explore and search for more. I would like to think that if you are really letting the horse be the teacher it would become obvious that these type of clinicians are very limited in what they have to offer.

The journey to better horsemanship is a much deeper journey than any clinician can define for any one person. It has changed my life. Yet look where it started so... maybe we see it as negative, but these people are going to spend there money some where anyway, it may as well be in the horse industry. Many of these people who sign on for the Parelli things are not ready to hear the whole deal and this just might be a step in the right direction.

From what I see in my area there are a lot of people who have watched one video and are training people and horses and they have a following. Our society is desperate for direction and spiritual connection. The sad thing is they are always looking outside themselves and the horse for someone to "fix it".

Not everybody is able to find the door, let alone walk through it with out help. For some of us that is hard to understand.

red

04-02-2007, 08:38 PM

I trotted on over to the other sites, to see what I could see.
the thing I found to be most true, is Parelli, ain't for me.

Im-a thinking that good old, Pat, who we all call PP.
Is full of himself, and other things, he want's me not to see.
But that's ok, because I've looked, and I been around some, too.
That hiney hidin, friendly games, just somehow don't ring true.
add the circle, alamand left, shuffle to and fro, and can't you tell,
it' plan to me, just what PP sure does know.

There is a sucker born most every day. And some have got some money.
PP, well, his pocket lined, if it weren't so sad, somehow it's kinda funny,
Teach the PEOPLE the behaviors. (acckkk)
then, them ponies, start actin funny.
the dignity within their souls, have been sold.
That PP ain't no dummy.

Best to get them to some "quiet learnin", dump the carrot sticks and such.
You move his feet to get him thinkin, that you are a leader true,
honest, on his side..no games to play, or levels, to tell you what to do.

No porkypine, no whips with strings, no smoke and, please, no mirrors..
have you not figured it out, your pony looks to YOU.

He's just a simple pony, he always reflects your truth. Don't bring him boring, contrived games, when you tell him what to do...
For that little pony,he sure don't read the books, no video has he, he is just that plain old pony, and that's good enough for me.

And, yes, your little pony knows just what you know.
and he knows what you do not.
You can play all the games you want.
But games, ain't speakin horse.

Ash

04-02-2007, 09:51 PM

Nice, Red!!

I thoroughly appreciated that.

KpH

04-02-2007, 11:31 PM

(thanks for that red)...
games to play,
I will just say,
are fun to do..
of course,
with horses too!
The problem is,
that games... not true
will create quite a zoo.
With rules that change,
and become so strange...
while humans discuss
and make such a fuss,
over this level and that
or what color string to wear
which saddle to bear,
or how we put on our hat!
The horse doesn't care when you do what
or why or when.
The horse only cares,
what happend then!
Games to play with horses or not...
who really cares about all that rot?
K4

Excess

04-03-2007, 09:39 AM

Well I'm not really sure
if theres a fix it all cure
but Im sure happy to say
that Im glad I read this discussion today!
I sure have learned a lot from you fine folks
And that I dont need carrots or pokes
or wands or handysticks or strings
all I need is feel, timing balance and that gives me wings!
This has been an interesting discussion I must admit
And quite civilized and friendly without many fits.
Reata and Red you hit the nail on the head
I hope everyone listens to what you've said
Mares and Rahfie I appreciated your input
Its all about feeling the horse's foot
Although KpH I wish you would have shared more
But I understand if you couldn't share your lore
So once again I must thank all of you
And alas I must bid you all adieu!

kewpalace

04-10-2007, 10:26 AM

Red, I LOVED your poem!!! Thanks!! Looking forward to other such contributions on other subjects . . . (nothing like putting on the pressure, eh?). ;-)

cynthia peterson

05-03-2007, 08:07 PM

i'm going to have to agree parelli is basically using ray hunts tools and methods. and pat has said many times how he admires ray hunt and wanted to be like him. as much as i like parelli, he can't hold a candle to ray hunt. that said, you have to admit that is WHY many parelli methods work. and you just have to ask why parelli has more followers then ray hunt or his followers? that's the question, what's this guy got going for him? maybe it's because parelli breaks it down in little steps. maybe it's because he addressed problems of beginners. his program does work if it's done correctly. most of the complaints i have heard here are what they have seen parelli done wrong. and there are many example of everybody's program done wrong. shoot, how many of us have seen ray's or buck's done wrong? there is hardly a ray hunt clinic without somebody half killing their self. ray's fault or the rider?
i still say the circling game is the most misunderstood. please don't confuss it with what john lyons does. no way is it the same concept. how does the horse know when to stop, change gaits, back up, reverse if i am not watching? BECAUSE THE HORSE IS WATCHING ME. when i signal, look up, step back for reverse, etc. the horse will do it, even without a halter on (when i have my game advanced). this is just a advanced method of training any other good trainer does. watch even a kid in a horsemanship class, it's the same concept...pay attention to me and i will signal what i want next.

parelli isn't perfect. there are not enough parelli people riding.and tooling around in a very loose rein with no direction FOREVER isn't gonna get you very advanced. that is the reason many advanced parelli people seem to be looking outside parelli. he is going to have to address that or lose them. but, then again, maybe there are enough "beginners" to keep parelli financially going.

red

05-03-2007, 08:41 PM

Pat trains people to do behaviors.

He does not go much beyond that. Some of his methods, allow people to believe they just have to play enough,hence it ceases to be about the horse, and becomes all about the games..sad part is they think, they will have "fixed" their horses...my experience with parelli teachings, is that if the horse fails to respond in a manner that the "parelli student" can understand, there is a big wreck...because they do not read the horse, they practice behaviors...which is good for Parelli, it keeps people dependent on him...big difference in what Ray, Buck, Martin, Cinch, convey. Advocating riding horses in halters, and lead ropes...masquerading as mecates, is not only disrespectful to the horse, it is dangerous, and has caused more injuries, to people...than just about any other methodology...turning your back while allowing any horse to circle you is...dangerous. No matter what level you are..

Most telling is that his followers call themselves "Parelli students"...not students of the horse...the best part about this method, is that people move away from it...

KpH

05-04-2007, 12:23 AM

red,red,red...and what about moi???? LOL
I've been thinking about this thread alot lately and not posting.
Parelli has developed a dependancy from the public on tools, things, games, programs, lists to follow etc. because it is consumer driven, and that, I'm sad to say is what the world is all about. Just like the food we eat, the clothes we wear and the cars we drive...everything.
'Parelli' was, and probably still is, the largest catalyst behind what is now known as Natural Horsemanship, the household word as we now know it.
I was a big part of that catalyst, however, I am in the "big difference in what Ray, Buck, Martin, Cinch, convey" department...horsemanship in capital letters.
K4H

red

05-04-2007, 08:00 AM

I know that Karen, and I know you, and your heart...I also see the clones creating the market for pp. The belief that the carrot stick can save them..or a game.. And as I spew my thoughts on PP, I always feel sick to my stomach...because, the crime is complacency, on my part. I fail to say what I think in the REAL world...not on this fantasy board, where I can hide behind my imaginary name, and berate this man, whom I have never met. But the lull that is created, by this particular brand of horsemanship, in the minds of the afficiandos, astounds me. Yet, I know, too, that it is attractive, to allot of people, and the majority move on when they become "better horsemen"...I never understand that..totally...when does the light bulb go on, and we go AHAAAAAA!! Cynthia is so right, when saying that All of us interperate things, and incorporate them into our lives, and some of us do not grasp the import. I have tried, and done the same, deluded myself into thinking I had it...and some little pony looked me in the eye and said "wanna bet?"
On a personal level, I lost a friend this weekend...wonderful woman. As much a Parelli addict as I am Not. Got tangled in her rope halter, not sure of the details..totally..so will not elaborate on them..it does not matter. She is gone. All I know is trail ride, warmblood, rope halter, english, or endurance saddle, tangle, struggle, fall, she became entangled as well. She died at the scene. MY point is, that I have been taught to hobble my horse, EVERY time I take him out..to saddle to brush, whatever..something I had gotten away from...lazy, too much trouble to bend over..(!!!) the older I get the farther away the ground is...ladeedah... Why bother, there is a place to tie him. The reason is that it creates a safe place for a horse fostering an untroubled mind...and I would love to hear you, dear Karen, address the whys and wherefores of hobbleing a horse..along with roping them, feet, head, neck barrel etc..and WHY we do these things..both things so abhorent to my friend, she did not believe stressing a horse "like that" fit into her program.
Forgive me for my rant. Not directed at you Cynthia,. But, as the song says, "I will not lie down, and I will not go quietly". I will speak up.
Because the little things, in horsemanship, can add up to something that is so big, it can save your life..or at least give you a chance to difuse a volitile situation...when timing and feel can add just a second, that could save your life.

Patti (but you can still call me red...lol)

Excess

05-04-2007, 08:19 AM

Parelli has developed a dependancy from the public on tools, things, games, programs, lists to follow etc. because it is consumer driven, and that, I'm sad to say is what the world is all about. Just like the food we eat, the clothes we wear and the cars we drive...everything.
K4H

As always I like to hear what you have to say on the subject. I usually don't like to comment on things unless I've heard the other side of the story from someone who has been there and so deeply immersed in it as you have. It more or less confirms what I feel about it too.

I wouldn't say Parelli hurt my relationship with Speedy. I wouldn't say it helped it either. Parelli reminds a lot nowadays like Christmas.

cynthia peterson

05-04-2007, 10:46 AM

well patti, RED, you and me are not the far apart. and i stand up for what i think. that's why i am still explaining, from my my side, done parelli, done buck, done ray hunt, side. i'm still gonna say, it's the little pieces that parelli has broken down the learning that works. and it maybe not pat, but his brilliant wife and a guru learning coach, stehp burns, that i might credit for that. maybe that's why when ray said maybe the same thing it didn't take untill parelli said it. and pat says LOTS of things ray says. i have given up correcting parellittes that ray said it first. the thing is, my dumb brain DID get it untill then, and my horse and i am better for it.

now, let's address the halter riding. that is not a parelli invention. it is in any self respecting ray follower to START the colt. maybe even come back to it to refresh the colt from time to time.(and maybe for beginners who hang on the bit) then you go on to the snaffle, etc. because some dummies can't or will not, is wrong. i again, state parelli by it's nature has a lot of beginners, and beginners make huge mistakes. as for me, i can pull around a colt in a pending wreck much easier with a halter then a bridle any day. that's why i use them even before parelli in training.

when do you "go on" and leave parelli. well, if you have tons of money and can go to their "centers"...never. some think it's a "club" and by being in it, it makes them look like they are doing all that stuff. that is a fault of parelli followers and for sure it's a profitable one for them.

if i can leave you with one thought. parelli has helped many. if done right, it is wonderful. sure it's profitable for parelli, sure there are people who just spend the money and do nothing. but i have friends who spent a whole lot more money on things that didn't work. new gadgets, new tiedowns, new bits, new saddles, new anything to make them look better. a few ropes and DVDs from parelli really pales to those $. could i do it without a "real" parelli rope and stick? yep, but you know us horse people, we know the difference between good and bad craftsmanship and get kinda fussy.

RockinCircleC

05-04-2007, 11:04 AM

On a personal level, I lost a friend this weekend...wonderful woman. As much a Parelli addict as I am Not. Got tangled in her rope halter, not sure of the details..totally..so will not elaborate on them..it does not matter. She is gone. All I know is trail ride, warmblood, rope halter, english, or endurance saddle, tangle, struggle, fall, she became entangled as well. She died at the scene. MY point is, that I have been taught to hobble my horse, EVERY time I take him out..to saddle to brush, whatever..something I had gotten away from...lazy, too much trouble to bend over..(!!!) the older I get the farther away the ground is...ladeedah... Why bother, there is a place to tie him. The reason is that it creates a safe place for a horse fostering an untroubled mind...and I would love to hear you, dear Karen, address the whys and wherefores of hobbleing a horse..along with roping them, feet, head, neck barrel etc..and WHY we do these things..both things so abhorent to my friend, she did not believe stressing a horse "like that" fit into her program.
Forgive me for my rant. Not directed at you Cynthia,. But, as the song says, "I will not lie down, and I will not go quietly". I will speak up.
Because the little things, in horsemanship, can add up to something that is so big, it can save your life..or at least give you a chance to difuse a volitile situation...when timing and feel can add just a second, that could save your life.

I am so sorry on the loss of your friend. Horse accident or not, losing someone close is always tough. My condolences to you and anyone that was friends or family of the woman.

Respectfully,
Liz

Sue

05-04-2007, 01:31 PM

I've been thinking on this for a while, I want to know what you all think. I think one of the big draws of PP is that he, his system and method are 'people freindly'. He can communicate with people, especially beginners, without making them feel inferior. The horse industry can be a daunting place, full of mystery, confusion, contradiction and yes, corruption... PP provides a place where beginners are supported. The horse world IS intimidating... as much by the people in it as the 1,200 lb animal that newbies are trying to learn to communicate with.

I am not a fan of PP, rather, like others have mentioned here, a student of the horse. I can certainly see the draw. Conversely, I don't think Ray Hunt is beginner freindly. This is no slight on Ray, but he has always made it known he is here for the horse. Its no secret that he is hard on folks at times. Parelli has the human communication part down to a science. People's talents and motivations simply lie in different areas.

Human nature isn't much different than that of the horse... we are looking for the easy thing. Pat Parelli provides the ease of online credit card ordering, minimal criticism, positive reinforcement, clear cut answers (a tangeable system?) and "belonging" to a club. If you guys think I am full of it on this, let me know.

FrancaV

05-04-2007, 06:16 PM

could i do it without a "real" parelli rope and stick? yep, but you know us horse people, we know the difference between good and bad craftsmanship and get kinda fussy.:) Yep, we're fussy, which is why my lead rope of choice is a Double Diamond "Brannaman" rope - much better "feel" and no nasty snap - and I use a flag or a plain old cheap lunge whip. I tried my friend's authentic orange Parelli "carrot stick" and it was unnecessarily clunky and heavy - way too heavy for my wrists! I can't begin to make as subtle a motion ("as little as possible") with that thing as I can with lighter tools. In addition to the DD lead ropes I always use Double Diamond halters, too. Best I've tried so far. Better products, IMO, and better prices, too.

FrancaV

05-04-2007, 06:20 PM

Patti aka red,

I agree with what you and Karen have said. I also wanted to say how very sorry I am about your friend. What a terrible shock for you and tragedy for her family.

I'm going to a Peter Campbell clinic next week and your post has prompted me to order some hobbles. Peter always says to bring along any equipment you'd like to learn how to use so I'm going to do just that. I know my mare has had the beginnings of hobble training with Peter but it's well past time that I learned what's what, and that I make sure my mare still remembers her early lessons because it's for sure I haven't practiced since then. Thank you very much for your post.

Excess

05-04-2007, 08:06 PM

I got some hobbles while I was at Equine Affaire. I have yet to try them on Speedy. But knowing the guy he probably will take to them like a duck in water. I hadn't introduced them yet because I was tentative. I hear so many people that are pro-hobbles and anti-hobbles. But after reading this post I am going to put that on my agenda for this week.

cynthia peterson

05-05-2007, 06:11 AM

well sue, i think you are so right. i love ray hunt. i already stated PP can't hold a candle to ray. but ray is kinda hard on a lot of people. could even say he runs some people off. and what ray has to give should reach every horse person, by WHOEVER that horse person will/can get it from. this is such a important way of handling horses, natural horsemanship, dorrance brothers/ray hunt teachings. PP has spread that message further, to more people then probably all the other followers all together. sad, huh? so, yep, PP is the "people friendly" ray hunt. sue, you have hit the nail on the head on many points in your posts.

the carrot stick is heavy, it takes some getting used to. the problem with the whip is it IS a whip, and people tend to use whips to whip. ray and PP "stick" are never used as a whip. and i agree with that clunky snap on PP, is not needed. now, that snap CAN do some damage being flung around to man and beast!

the ropes, i have used every knockoff there is, including double diamond. rope, not as good. too flimsy, not enough strands, not tight enough strands. i need to send some life down the body of the rope. and the more subtle i can do that the better it transferred to light aids on the ground and saddle.

i am going to a lee smith clinic next month. looking forward to that.

FrancaV

05-05-2007, 01:32 PM

the ropes, i have used every knockoff there is, including double diamond. rope, not as good. too flimsy, not enough strands, not tight enough strands. i need to send some life down the body of the rope. and the more subtle i can do that the better it transferred to light aids on the ground and saddle.Interesting ... the Parelli rope I've held (the one belonging to my friend with the carrot stick) feels fat in my hands and kind of ... "noodley". I don't know how else to describe it! Maybe it's a matter of what one is used to, but I don't like a rope that floppy.

The other Double Diamond ropes may be flimsy, but I beg to differ on this one:

http://www.doublediamondhalters.com/Lead%20Ropes/Brannaman_Lead.htm

Very tight strands, good weight and feel. Everyone who has ever used my lead ropes has wanted one. (If they didn't already have one. ;)) It's not a knock-off if it's better, and IMO this one is the best.

I used to go to West Marine and buy my own lengths of yacht rope but I was browsing around in a large tack shop one day checking out all the halters and lead ropes and spotted this Double Diamond one that felt different the moment I picked it up. I bought the last two they had. This was back before DD started calling them "Brannaman" ropes, when they only came in white. I hate white (it stays white for all of about 5 minutes!) but had to have the ropes anyway - they were that good. Next lesson my instructor (the one who took me to West Marine and helped me get my first lead rope) took my horse to show me something and immediately asked me where I got that lead rope. Over the years she's probably held just about every type of rope there is and she's not easy to impress.

Have a great time with Lee Smith, Cynthia! I'm riding with Peter Campbell next week. I just spent the extra $ to ride in the afternoon class as well as the morning. It's only $ and physical exhaustion, right? LOL. As long as it's not too hot up there I'll survive and it should be a blast.

cynthia peterson

05-05-2007, 06:01 PM

cynthia peterson

05-05-2007, 06:11 PM

oh man, i would like to see peter campbell too. i don't think he comes much this far east.there is a 2 DVD set i have of tom dorrance benefit clinic with ray hunt at fort worth with all the RH chosen clinicians. peter is one of the best in it.

uh huh, i hear ya. you just hope your adrenaline will carry you thru for strength to look good in the clinic! it does push you to put the time in before the clinic.

there's a old saying, only a man can pick his own wife and horse. and i guess that goes for clinicians and ropes too!

Weebonilass

05-05-2007, 09:11 PM

oh man, i would like to see peter campbell too. i don't think he comes much this far east.there is a 2 DVD set i have of tom dorrance benefit /ray hunt fort worth clinic with all the chosen clinicians. peter is one of the best in it.

He's in Ohio this year.... he's in (I think) Tennessee... and he's going to Archie, MO, but that's a four hour drive and I think I'd prefer to see Joe Wolter :)

Weebonilass

05-05-2007, 09:14 PM

Franca,

I also like the Double Diamond rope, mainly because it's thinner and having small hands, I prefer thin reins. My mecate reins are from Double Diamond also. My English bridle has the curb reins from a double bridle. I think they are 1/2"

Also the Parelli ropes get thicker with use. The new ones feel really good to me, but after about six months of heavy use, they just feel heavier.

Excess

05-05-2007, 09:55 PM

You know I got that Double Diamond lead with my Brannaman halter and I don't like it! It's too hard and heavy and thin. I like thicker reins. My first mecate is a 1" mecate. I like Julie Goodnight's ropes. Not sure where she gets hers. But they're slightly thicker, not too heavy but not to light but very lively and supple. I can provide link if need be.

FrancaV

05-05-2007, 11:44 PM

Definitely personal taste. :) I don't like thick, and I like a bit of weight in my hands, for lead ropes and reins. My first mane hair mecate was too thick and too light. LOL! My Hagel mecate feels much nicer.

cynthia peterson

05-06-2007, 09:23 AM

i have always been a leather person...love the feel of leather! but, you know, as the fingers get older and stiffer---those FAT ropes feel good. that's what you get for years of hauling hay bales, stepped on, and crushed in the cattle chute box!
yep, the parelli rope does get fatter with age and better. kinda like a lariat isn't good untill it's been used and dirty to break it down some and feel good.parelli does have a "recreation" grade they are experimenting with selling. this is a cheaper version (for poorer followers???) so you do have to be careful of not getting those ropes. and the fuzzy thing on the end does help keeping flies away (and collect sand burrs!)
the hard, firmer ropes don't do much for having that "live" feeling for feedback to the horse for finesse.(been there/tried that)
i think joe wolber lived in iowa once? closer to me. some around here have seen him.
julie goodnight. i like her. a good common sense person.
has anyone been to harry whitney clinic?

Weebonilass

05-06-2007, 03:39 PM

Cythnia,

I saw Julie Goodnight at the IL Horse Expo and bought all 8 of her DVDs. First time, I've ever done that. So guess I was really impressed. :)

Joe Wolter's bio didn't mention living in Iowa, but anything's possible I've decided to go to his clinic in So. IL for at least the horsemanship part and we'll decide later on the cattle part. My friend can't afford to ride, but she said that she wanted to audit, so that takes care of worrying how to get my boy there.

My goal some day is to ride with Harry, but so far he's just been too far away for me so far.

Excess

05-06-2007, 05:34 PM

Cythnia,

I saw Julie Goodnight at the IL Horse Expo and bought all 8 of her DVDs. First time, I've ever done that. So guess I was really impressed. :)

I adore Julie. I have participated in a clinic with her and I will be seeing her next weekend at the Syracuse Horse Expo. I can't wait! I own all her DVDs as well. I went to Equine Affair last year and that's the first time I ever saw her. I saw her for only 15 minutes at the end of one of her clinics. Of the hours of John Lyons, Chris Cox and everyone else I learned more from Julie in that 15 minutes than I did from everyone else. I'd take one of her clinics again. She's good.

FrancaV

05-07-2007, 01:37 AM

I've audited a Harry Whitney clinic (I learned a lot), and so many people I know and respect think the world of him that I'm going to his ranch for two weeks next year. I'm going with some friends that have ridden with him at his ranch before, but it will be my first time taking my horse and riding with him.

FrancaV

05-07-2007, 01:54 AM

Peter's wonderful. I'm starting to lose count ... this will be I think the 6th time I've ridden with him.

I need to get those DVDs of the Tom Dorrance benefit; I have a couple of friends who were there to watch and I've read some clinic reports about the event but haven't seen the DVDs. I would also like to get DVDs of Tom Dorrance himself because I never got the chance to see him in person. :( I do have a couple of Peter's DVDs. Not the same as actually riding with him but I still like watching them.

LOL - if I cared about looking good in a clinic I'd never go! I need all my energy to stay focused in the saddle for that many hours. So much to learn! But with repetition more of the pieces fall into place every clinic. Pity I didn't start this journey when I was younger and had energy to spare!

Sue

05-07-2007, 08:49 AM

parelli does have a "recreation" grade they are experimenting with selling. this is a cheaper version (for poorer followers???)

Thats nice... at least they're thinking of the little people.

Sorry, sometimes I can't help smarting off.

cynthia peterson

05-08-2007, 10:22 AM

WEE, you must be somewhere in my part of the country to see julie goodnight at the Illinois Horse Expo. she go snowed in at the airport--came late and still did a heckova job. funny, women clinicians just never get their "due" like men clinicians, even if they are good, huh?

well, now we are getting somewhere. Where IS joe wolber at? i googled him up once (b/c someone said he was around Iowa once). so where is he now. he is in the Tom dorrance Benefit Clinic too.

Yep, you guys i never get tired of watching the tom Dorrance/ray hunt fort worth DVD set. just when i get eye locked on a clinician doing so good with a colt---a bucking colt and rider comes bucking by, gotta watch that! there is a part where ray works with a troubled mare (he is riding at the clinic) between sessions. his take on it, when she's right, when she's not right, is priceless. you get all the best clinicians (they had to be invited by ray) then all the riders in the afternoon. and don't you wish you could have seen tom? the thing with him, he made you "get" it yourself, and sometimes that was a long time coming......

Weebonilass

05-08-2007, 11:56 AM

WEE, you must be somewhere in my part of the country to see julie goodnight at the Illinois Horse Expo. she go snowed in at the airport--came late and still did a heckova job. funny, women clinicians just never get their "due" like men clinicians, even if they are good, huh?

well, now we are getting somewhere. Where IS joe wolber at? i googled him up once (b/c someone said he was around Iowa once). so where is he now. he is in the Tom dorrance Benefit Clinic too.

Cynthia,

I'm down in So. Illinois, about 45 min east of St. Louis. Joe Wolter is going to be at Mark Schwarm's Win-Thru farm in Marion, IL, which is even further south. The clinic I went to in March, I think had more Kentucky people than Illinois.

A heads up that Ray Hunt may be at the state fairgrounds in Oct. I'll let you know more, if you like, as I learn it.

galen

05-08-2007, 02:21 PM

My post here is in response to the comment/question someone posted about the Parelli circling game. The post said "... There is no communication between horse and human ... There is no communication going on between when the person says "go" and when the person says "stop".

I have ridden in Brannaman clinics for over a decade, but it doesn't mean I'm good at achieving the results with my horse as Buck has tried to teach me. Nor does my inability mean he is a lousy teacher, or that what he teaches is bad or wrong.

We all aspire to achieve different results with our horses... some folks are striving to be vacqueros, some to roman riding (Lorenzo), some to dressage, eventing, and some to just "playing games" to connect with their horse.

I cannot directly answer the question about how the circling game works. And I am not a big fan of Parelli's marketing, nor do I think his methods are the be-all, end-all in horsemanship (whether beginner or advanced). However, I have recently made some new friends who are Parelli students (L3). Just for fun I have started experimenting with the games. After watching these folks and many others (including Pat) at different levels doing those games, I have to say that to presume that the games are dangerous, not effective, or perhaps are not fun to a horse based on seeing people who might lack feel doing those games isn't really fair to those who work hard to achieve positive and lasting results with their horses by playing those games. It would be like someone watching me ride, seeing my faults, and saying, "Would you look at that? Brannaman's methods must be really awful!" How fair is that to Buck?

This video clip from youtube shows the end results of at least one person who aspired to achieve a connection with their horse using the Parelli games. I think the human has a lot of feel, and the horse is clearly not "checked out." There are many more clips of these two on youtube, but this one pretty effectively demonstrates the connection they have as a result of "playing games" (and the circling game is most evident in a portion of this clip).

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Respectfully,
Gale N.

cynthia peterson

05-08-2007, 07:36 PM

Gale, thanks you for your answer to parelli. yep, that's how i see it too. i know there are many poor examples of all the good clinicians, but they all have fantastic examples too. Honza (in the youtube clip) is one of those. there is also some youtube clips of Mikey and Redson.
Honza is a parelli student.(and i believe instructor) i think he has gone on his own to do some shows in Europe (where he was from). as much as i like parelli, i will have credit Honza of being a very talented man in his own self.

WEE, i am from Northern Illinois, only about a hour from the Iowa and Wisconsin border (heavy horse country. it is said there are more horses PER SQUARE MILE in the Wisconsin/Illinois border then in other place in USA) Ray Hunt may come to the fairgrounds, in Springfield? (Illinois has two state fairgrounds) yes, please keep me informed!

Weebonilass

05-09-2007, 12:42 PM

Cynthia,

Thanks, I didn't realize that there was two... he's going to be at the DuQuoin one... is that one further south?

I've seen Honza in person and the relationship he has with his little Russian Mustang is just-awe inspiring. I remember at the end of the demo, all the Parelli folks sent their horses racing around the arena with them standing in the middle. The goal was for the horse to peel off to their person when the person requested it. Mostly it was something as subtly as tipping their heads to the side. Everyone, except Gaston that is, he kept diving into to Honza. Honza would send him back out and he's be diving in again. On the other hand, Remmer, Linda's horse, kept going and going and going. Even when he was the only one out there. Finally, he came into her, but he was obviously making a statement... all in his own good time :D

cynthia peterson

05-09-2007, 01:13 PM

ah, the horse tells the relationship.... who wouldn't want to have a horse have that kind of relationship with you? Honza's horse looks like a kinda draft pony, this wicked thick mane every which way. that horse just looks at Honza like my border collie looks at me...pricless! sometimes i get that too with my horses, and without food in my hands!

yep, DuQuoin is further south, glad i asked! see we "northerners" don't even think about the state fairgrounds being anywhere but Springfield. and for you out there that don't know. Illinois has two state fairgrounds because the old Duquoin one is where the little brown derby, the famous horse race, originated. and no one can bear to ever shut down a sacred place like that. so, we have two state fairs.

Weebonilass

05-09-2007, 02:39 PM

yep, DuQuoin is further south, glad i asked! see we "northerners" don't even think about the state fairgrounds being anywhere but Springfield. and for you out there that don't know. Illinois has two state fairgrounds because the old Duquoin one is where the little brown derby, the famous horse race, originated. and no one can bear to ever shut down a sacred place like that. so, we have two state fairs.

Wow Cynthia, that's my trivia for the day. I've lived here for five years now and never knew there was any State fairgrounds other than Springfield. Guess, I'll be mapquesting for directions come Oct :)

cynthia peterson

05-09-2007, 05:52 PM

But you did know about the little brown derby? 'cause you can wow them with that too. oh, and us "northerners" consider the springfield fair THE state fair!

my husband's family are bigtime livestock exibitors, and we have done a fair amoung ourself. so we know where all the fairgrounds are in practically most states.

Eclectic

05-10-2007, 06:08 PM

i think the eclectic horseman magazine has great horsemen (women) and i would love to hear comments from them on what they think of Parelli.

Howdy Cynthia,

We appreciate the compliment.

I want to chime in because we are often accused by the larger population of PNH folks of being anti-PNH. This just isn't the case. Eclectic Horseman is just a small magazine doing the best we can to grow, without compromising our integrity. Our mission is to be an educational source for as many horse owners that will take notice. This includes PNH devotees alike.

We're 'eclectic' remember, and we hope we're encouraging folks to draw on several sources to educate themselves and get the job done with their animals. But if we don't publish articles with any one particular clinician, that should not be misconstrued as some position against them. And we also don't believe that's it's a good reason to bash us, slamming the door on what we do offer — which is often times the case when people don't see their personal favorite clinician in the pages of Eclectic Horseman.

Having said all of that, we know for a fact there are many many so-called clinicians that would be serving the world better if they joined the circus, rather than "helping" people with their horses. There are plenty of flimflams; There always will be, and we can only hope new horse owners don't get hurt or killed following the advice of some of these dinks who are in effect stealing their money.

Anyways, as you see, your post solicited serveral opinions about PNH, each of them 100% valid in their own right — Both pro and con. That's exactly what this forum is for. In the end, the only thing that matters is what you think about PNH, not what Eclectic Horseman thinks. We want you to make up your own mind, and realize that there are lot's of ways to accomplish your goals. Do the Parelli courses work for you and your horses, or not? It's really that simple.

Thanks a million for your participation on the boards, and hopefully you subscribe to the Eclectic Horseman.

PS: I watch the PBR from time to time. Ever see the film RANK? If you have not, you should if you're a big fan of the PBR. http://einsiders.com/features/columns/show_article.php?article=227

cynthia peterson

05-10-2007, 08:39 PM

well, howdy, and thanks for your personal answer ECH. i am honored.
yep, i am a do subscribe to your magazine ( don't you see me bragging on every issue!?).
and yes, i think parelli has helped my horsemanship. do i think he is the only or even the best of the bunch? he is the most easiest to understand. you know, i never really "got" ray hunt's words untill Parelli. now Ray means so much more to me.
i think i have already admitted i think most of what PP has learned has been from someone else (isn't it true of us all?).
that said, i'm not one of the many parelli followers that think he knows it all. i am a "prove it to me" person. i"m opened minded. and one good place is to read Eclectic Magazine. and i know you are big on ray and buck. believe me, i am too. incidentally, a parelli Level 3 student suggested your magazine. so there are at least two of us reading it!
and i truly appreciated everyone putting there 2 cents worth. I think we all came to a appreciation of each others thoughts. and that what makes a good forum thread.

thanks again for your answer. that was real friendly of ya!