bad people

[Titania]

Found out a little insight into two of my horses.

The dentist came out on Friday. One lil had never had her wolf teeth pulled and by the looks of it had never had her teeth done. which is bad enough...

the dentist pointed out that her tounge was almost severed. by a training method of tying a metal wire around the horses tounge and attaching it to the bit. She has two large notches (About 2" on either side) in her tongue and a thin red mark that goes all the way around.

Buddy my Chestnut gelding has a thin red ring around his tongue, too.

My trainer told me it is the barbaric way to build a big stop onto a western horse. that she almost puked the first time she saw it in person. my dentist said he has worked on horses that have completely lost their tongues. I defintely cried when i saw this. BTW they built a big stop on him alright...no wonder any time you pick up on a rein he stops.

Lil is from kansas and Buddy is from the great lakes area. Two horses from completely different places.

Has anyone else heard of this? How could someone do something so awful!

The dentist and my trainer said i can still use a snaffle bit in lil's mouth, that it's more the psychological than the acutual pressure we will have to retrain.

[Baquera]

The cutting/reining/cowhorse people I lived with and was around would have never done this to a horse. However.....I suspect this type of barbaric training is done more than we would like to know in the big money world of stockhorse shows, reining, etc. There is so much money at stake, people with little scruples or compassion will stoop to new lows trying to win. Too bad you can't turn the previous owners in for cruelty.

I'm wondering if you should try your guys in a hackamore for some time, to rest their mouths?

Look at the bright side, they have you now, and a safe place to be, and lots of compassion.

[Scout]

One of my youngsters cut his nose big enough that the stitches interfered with his snaffle bit so moved him into the bosal/hackamore. He's going better in the hackamore and seems to really like it so I'd sure second that idea to rest a mouth and convey to your horse that things are different now. Good luck and good for you for stepping up.

[Sue]

I've seen it. Knew a horse named Nugget that had a partial amputation of his tongue.

Its not discipline specific. There's bizarre torture devices in most every major tack catalog. Lots I wouldnt even know how to put on a horse. If you build it-they will buy it.

Titiana... it is unusual that you have two horses with damage... maybe they landed with you for a reason. IMO, you shouldn't have an issue with using a snaffle or even a bit with them, you're not the same as those people that chose cheating, shortcuts and intimidation to force "results".

[Excess]

What we found out that was equally disturbing is that Lil and the breeder's other horse was at this trainers and BOTH ended up with cut tongues. Not only that, but two years later when Speedy was started, they sent Speedy there too. He was ridden by this trainer fofr 45 days. I really want to check his mouth now too. He's always been very willing but he's always played with the bit. I'm ging to check his mouth asap.

[Titania]

Thank you all - My trainer's first comment was "I'm sorry you saw that/welcome to the underbelly of the horse world"

In my anger and typing I didn't mean to imply that it's only western or that it's typical! I just meant that the dentist had seen it a number of times and usually with reiners or western horses to get a sliding stop which makes sense given what I know about these horses. The chesnut was supposed to be a reiner and a team roper. He was sold b/c he didn't make any money at it. "wasn't good enough"

My trainer told me to put it out of my mind, treat them as they were young ones that knew nothing and go back to the very beginning. That horses don't live in the past and i shouldn't either. But it's hard now not to see them differently.

Maybe the empathy is a good thing for me developing better feel. You're right Sue - it's odd that I would have two horses with different behavioral problems that had the same barbaric thing done to them. One with no go, and the other with no whoa. hopefully I can try and get something good done with them. no pressure, right?!

I've never been angry enough to want to take an eye for and eye. But this is on the verge of testing me. It looks like lils owner and breeder of speedy sent all of her babies to this trainer after knowing what happened to lil. Lils other baby had her tongue cut. Exy is going to have speedy checked out. The owner/breeder told us that her tongue had a cut on it, never did she say it was half severed! turns out she knew it was half severed and the trainer said the bit did it...or something to that affect.

I just can't forgive that owner. It's our job to look out for these creatures and make them feel safe. And now she doesn't THINK that lil's teeth ever did get done. They only had three horses... how do you just forget?! UGH i'm just so angry!

[Mulie]

Hah! "the bit did it" Even if the bit did it, the bit was attached to a person. I didn't know about such a thing. I've seen some pretty horrible stuff put in mule mouths, though. Sure glad you've got the horses now.

[Titania]

My trainer (who will be 75 this spring, shh don't tell) said she has seen some pretty awful stuff. Once in her younger days and I guess this was quite common she used a bikechain as a mouth piece. She did it once and never again...

She's an amazing horsewoman now. I guess it's all part of the journey.

[Mares Tales]

What is really sad is, all those cut tongues were totally unecessary, in fact, counter productive. Humans can justify almost anything in their own heads, even people who think themselves fair, humane, and horse lovers sometimes do bad things for the sake of their ambitions. And then there are others who just do not see life from the other side, methods are accepted and they endorse it because everybody else is doing it and they refuse to think for themselves, even for the sake of something they are supposed to love and be responsible for.

I have seen saddlebred people keep their horses in tail sets and weighted shoes, in small stalls with tail boards with no turnout. They bring them carrots and say they love them and then let their trainers beat the livin day lights out of them or hop them up on caffiene and ruin their kidneys just to win a ten cent ribbon. Where is the love in that? but yet they just accept it as part of the deal. Yes and every discipline has its torture chamber tactics that leave horses maimed for life, physically and or mentally.

When I first came to this kind of horsemanship that we practice on this site, I felt like I had finally found home. I could finally practice what my heart had been telling me that there was but I did not know how to get there until I saw Ray and Buck perform their magic and speak of respecting their horse and really meaning it, discribing themselves as the horses defender. They practiced what they said; such honesty and authenticity. I felt like I had been freed from the chains of false Gods and my past.

Titania, Exy, and Ash. I feel very good about young people such as yourselves who are on this path so early in life. You will develope your feel, and along with that will come a deep knowledge of what is real and genuine. Makes me feel there is hope for the future.

[Excess]

You know I wonder what happened to one of my pasos. All of our paso finos are more or less rescue horses. There's Chocolat and Caramello who were previously beast of burden horses. They were used for whatever their people needed them for - whether it be packin 300lbs of banana or plantains or as a more od transportation. We got Chocolat fairly early so I think he was spared by most of this. Caramello is the one I'm always worried about. He has a permanent scar from a crupper. "Tack" down in the Dominican Republic is basically scraps of whatever they found and put it together. More often than not its plastic rope or sisal rope or pieces of rubber. It's scary. Horses are lucky to get saddle pads and people ride them with saddle sores all over the place. I've seen horses with exposed spines still being ridden. The people do what they can and get pieces of cardboard to "pad" their sores or peice of burlap sack. EVERY YEAR I go down there I take about 2k of my own money in tack down there and collect donations from people. I have seen my tack used on the horses but I think a lot of the time they sell it -either way SOME horses in the Dominican Republic ARE getting benefited from it, which makes me feel better, even if it's not hte horses that I work with down there which are on a trail riding string.

ANYWAY that was asuper long tangent that I didn't mean to take. Caramello is (was) my step mother's paso fino. He's a gorgeous light palomino gelding. Both Chocolat and Caramello were studs until about 2-3 years ago. Every time Caramello was ridden though, his mouth ended up full of blood. We bought a package of curbs and used a new one each time we rode him because he'd chomp on the bit so much he'd splinter it. And we used a new time every time we rode him. It worked for a bit but ultimately we retired him completely. This horse was just so abused and battered in his previous life.

My other Paso Fino, Sallieri, was "luckily" born on the trail ride string and I don't think he has ever seen as a bad a life as most of the horses there. He was given to me for all the hard work and donations and education I've brought for the people. He does have some saddle sore scars but thankfully, the owner of the trail riding string that I work with has learned that yes horses CAN FEEL PAIN and shouldn't be worked when they have open wounds. I also bring down some ointments to put on the horses. Slowly but surely they're learning.

[reata]

Titania, Exy, and Ash. I feel very good about young people such as yourselves who are on this path so early in life. You will develope your feel, and along with that will come a deep knowledge of what is real and genuine. Makes me feel there is hope for the future.

Oh Mares, we sure do enjoy the girls.. Their questions and comments get the old brains turning over .. and if we can share some thoughts to help them it sure makes us happy ..
They will be fine ..every day I'm sure another peice of the puzzle pops into place..(as it does for all of us)
Thanks to EH for giving us this place where we can feel safe to express our heartfelt thoughts.
We are all buddies and really care for each other and our horses...
We are family!!! :)

[alanbell]

I'd imagine that the no go AND the no whoa are both different responses to the same bad training! They are both ways to avoid having pain applied except that in the no whoa the horse may be thinking it can "out run" the pain while the no go horse figured out that the hard pulls came when it was going faster! Things to consider as you progress along. I'll be starting on a few bosals over the holidays and will keep in touch.
Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[red]

AB,
I want one.

love,
red

[Excess]

Hey Alan I may be interested in a Bosal too. I got to check my funds though. Especially since I'm hopefully getting a saddle pad from Reata =)

[Titania]

Alan I'm very excited about that Bosal!!! no pressure. :)

That was my thought that they might be linked. Funny how i had two horses before that I had no clue how to relate to...then i get their teeth done, and WHAM reality.

the horse with no go when i first met him would barge out of his stall and lead his former rider around. She sold him b/c he would psuh through her cues and although he was sluggish and slow to respond he'd resist and kind of pressure from the halter, rope halter, or bit. by either refusing to move of throwing off her cues all together. being 1400 you can do that. (We have worked out most of the brace but now he just uses his trick of not going.)

We saw her as not being fit to own a golden retriever and that SHE had created these issues in him. I thnk we were wrong and unfair to her. I owe her a BIG apology, even though I never opened my mouth she knew what I was thinking. She may not have helped him any, but she wasn't to blame for it either. Life sure is funny like that. Seems to hit you on the back of the head when you least expect it.

In the spirit of Thanksgiving...I am extremely thankful to my friend Exy who introduced me to ya'll and to everyone on the forum who have already helped me SO much. Thank you everyone for the kind words and the help.

Well happy thanksgiving. I think the end of this year is a good time to start creating a new safe place for these horses, so come 2007 and beyond they have no more worries.