My suddenly bucking bronco

[MyAmigoMaya]

Hi folks! I gave a brief intro about myself and my horse on the intro thread, but to sum it up, I'm a new horse owner and have been riding about a year. I just got a 9-year-old QH mare named Maya, back in January. She was given to me for free because she has navicular and can't be ridden by most people yet, but I'm really tiny (as in child-size, basically) so I can ride her a little right now. Mostly we just stay at a walk. I've only ridden her about 4 times really--once when I first got her, a few days after she'd arrived, and the woman who gave her to me wanted me to just try her out. She hadn't been ridden in probably close to 3 years, but she was awesome--a little rusty on steering, but then again, I'm used to an English bridle and keeping more contact on the reins, so finding a balance with her where she didn't feel like I was too heavy on her mouth was a challenge. She didn't seem to like the bit she was in (I think I remember it being a snaffle but I can't remember for sure), so Exy gave me a training bit to try.

Second time I rode her, she was likewise awesome. We rode in the arena, walked around barrels, between ground poles, onto and off a platform, everything. Still didn't like the bit--lots of head-tossing periodically, especially on turns when I took up a contact, but nothing major. The next day Exy and I took our horses for a little ride out in the snow along the fence line and she was even more awesome. No spooks, listened perfectly, and was 100% sound in the snow. She even waded through snow up to her belly without a qualm.

So yesterday I went to ride her and it was a complete unmitigated disaster. When I mounted, she started at a fast walk toward the pasture gate. When I asked her to stop, she tossed her head and started moving sideways toward the pasture gate. Didn't respond to leg pressure at all. Pushed her past the pasture gate--she broke into a trot (which I don't want her to do because of her lameness--though good to know for the future, it's pretty smooth!). Tried to slow her down--she bucked! I didn't even think she could buck, but she managed a decent little crowhop or two. Turning her and lifting her head made her shake her head more. This continued for another go-round--she kept trying to get back to the pasture gate, and any attempts to move her past it or away from it resulted in some sort of evasion. She loped (again, good to know for the future--it's super-smooth also...), she tried to crowhop, backed up, etc. The worst was when I had gotten her facing away from the gate and standing quietly for a second on loose reins. I gently touched her sides with my legs and she reared and spun around and headed back toward the pasture gate again. I can't believe this horse reared and bucked--that seems so unlike her. She was paying absolute zero attention to me--all her energy was focused on getting to the pasture gate.

So there's two issues I think may be at play here, and I'd love to hear what others think. One is that she probably hasn't had her teeth done in ages, and so maybe the bit is causing her pain. So I'm going to get the vet out hopefully this week to float her. Exy got on her in the round pen for a minute or two--I put her halter on her and attached the reins to the noseband, and Exy tried getting her to flex and release her neck. She was pretty stiff.

The second issue is that she seems to be really herd-bound. She's broken out of crossties and broken a stall door trying to get out and get back to her herd before. With groundwork she's really pushy with me at times, but on other days she's really mellow and follows me around without a lead rope. Some days (like yesterday) she'll walk away from me in the pasture and be hard to catch; other days she'll walk up to me when I call her name. Yesterday her boss mare was already taken out of the pasture when I got her, and her buddy horse was getting really wound up about it--running around screaming. So I think that may have gotten her a little wound up too.

And the last issue might be her lameness. She was limping a little bit when I got her out, but that's usually the case if she's stiff--then once she warms up a bit she's fine for some light walking, at least. I only have ridden her for about 15-20 minutes, and if she starts to bob her head or limp or seem sore, I usually end it right around there. But that's normally her signal to me--bucking and rearing is not! Plus, her breaking into a lope and trot and putting her weight on the forehand to buck doesn't seem to match up with that.

Anyway, that's the situation as it stands. I'm fully expecting to go out and see her today and have her be an angel--that seems to be the way it works. (: I would love to hear any advice anyone has--as I said, I'm a newbie to horse ownership and still pretty much a newbie to riding in general, so I'm open to all suggestions!

Sarah

[red]

ACCCCKKKKK!!!! This calls for advice from our super heros..TwoCents, Cinch, D. Walker Canoeman...I know they wear capes, with their Chinks, and in fact I would pay to see that...

Being new, it is hard to know what step to take first, and really there are some serious issues that you will be addressing, the heros, they are pretty much right..I would ask you first an formost, have your done any ground work with her at all? Sometimes, you can see the hint on the ground..most times in fact it is pretty blatant...but unless you know what to look for, you will miss it.. (we all have been in your shoes, so not to worry) Are you sure there are no Pain issues involved, navicular is a funny disease..deterioration sometimes excellerates, and what you are countin as an attitude problem, may indeed be something more...

Having said that, I will move over and let the heros reflect on their knowledge, and expertise...wait, was that the whoosing sound of a cape?

no. just that big old raven I throw bread to every morning...but they ARE on the way, I just know it... and you will pleased with this thread...I know I am waiting to see what happens next...

love,
red

[Ash]

I am also excited to see what happens.

[Excess]

Hey guys! 't is me. I just wanted to ad some posts to this since I do know this horse. Her history is a little clouded. She at some point was trained and trained well. Then she was put in a pasture for a few years, gone to crap and got navicular. They bred her with full knowledge that she had navicular and of course that made it a whole lot worse. When our farrier found her she was three days away from being put to sleep. The farrier hated seeing such a nice looking horse have a death sentence when she was so young and she has worked with a ton of other navicular horses and has had much success with those so she offered to take the horse. This mare has made tremendous strides from her death sentence. She is not 100% sound, but she certainly isn't on deathrow anymore. Here is a video of Maya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp96oDhbtT4 And that is how she is most of the time. She is not a mean horse and moves nicely and is very responsive. Heck, even more responsive than my horse most of the time.

I think a big issue here is that Sarah is tiny. She's 4'10" and weighs maybe 80lbs. And I think Maya knows this. When Sarah first got her she had a lot of issues with manners. She would barge right past her and wouldn't walk right at the shoulder, wouldn't stop when people stopped. This was even harder for Sarah since she's so tiny. However there's been a lot of progress been made with this.

Yesterday I hoped on Maya for a little bit after this mess and I tried flexing her head to the right and left like I do with Speedy when he has a snaffle on (Maya was wearing a ropehalter since the bit bothered her so much) and was met with nothing but resistance. I have never felt a horse resist so much before. I have never done it with Speedy before from teh saddle with a rope halter so today I hopped on him but there was no resistance at all so that couldn't be it. I don't think she did it even once. So I figured I'd get off of her and try to see if I can free up he fore and rear.

She crosses over her haunches very nicely. There is no resistence there and after awhile just stepping towards them has her stepping over nicely. Then I go to her fronts. Oh my goodness. Resistance, resistance, resistance. I tried moving forward, I tried bumping my hand against her neck. I tried hissing, whistling, shhhhhh-ing, clicking, waving my arms like crazy, you name it, nothing. Finally I take a deep breath. I block with one hand by her head and then take the tail end of the rope and slowly twirl it and bring it closer and closer to her neck. FINALLY I get her to take a couple steps and I release immediately. She was a bit stiff but she did it. She's better one way and not the other.

So until this point our "groundwork" with Maya has been getting her to respect Sarah during leading. Standing still and backing up. Although she isn't perfect yet, she has come a long way already.

Anyway we have called the vet and they just have to call Sarah back. We're getting her teeth done before we rule out a bit issue.

On a sidenote we're curious how LAME this horse is. So many people have told me that horses can't fake it, but I'm begining to question that. We've seen her trot, lope, do some pretty dexterous movements out in the pasture but whenever people are around she sometimes does this big exagerated limp....we feel sorry for her and put her back out into the pasture only for her to trot away sound. So I'm not sure. This mare is a mystery to me!

[MyAmigoMaya]

Thanks for the additional info, Exy! That about sums it up. She's been getting so much better as far as manners go as I learn more about what works with her, but she also has some days where she seems much more wound up and ignores me no matter what I do. Then the next day she's perfectly well-behaved again on the ground. I have a Jekyll and Hyde horse. (: Still haven't heard back from the vet!

[reata]

Reata enters!!! Undies on the outside and Cape blowing in wind..

Hi Sarah, I watched the video and your mare is lame.. But you know that..
You say you have had her for a couple of months but have only ridden her a few times.. And its been winter and she is well fed??
Horses are roaming and grazing animals, they naturally live outside and can travel many miles looking for food.. If we lock them up in stables or pens and feed then .. they get a build up of energy ..That energy has to come out..
Sometimes it comes out as a buck or a rear or a gallop or a fancy prancy trot.
A good rider would know this and put that energy to work .. a new rider like yourself, gets confused and can't work out what is wrong with your lovely mare. She is just being a horse. That's all!!
If you can't manage her when she is being this horse you have to get smarter.. Let her let off steam in the RP or do more with her in the RP before you ever get on ..Or you can turn her out into a pasture and let her be a horse or maybe just stop feeding her so much good feed..
Yes, your mare does sound a little herd bound..and that can be a problem.
The herd becomes a lot more important than the owner. So the horse starts to get a little pushy and a little rude and before long the horse is Pushy and rude.. Walking over the top of the owner.. and if your only a little owner this can be scary .. even us taller owners get worried..
Ya know its a real hard thing to learn this NH stuff. Ya see some guys get real big with a rude and pushy horse.. just to get the change.. and many people think that's all it takes.. Yes, you do need to get a change but its the release after the change that most people miss..
Ya have to do what it takes.. NO more and NO less. You being not very big I think you may need to take heed on the NO less side..
I'm sure your mare is very forgiving .. and if you do too much she will forgive you .. but if you do too less she is going to walk all over you ..
Exy will show you the moves.. but remember this is a partnership and somebody has to lead.. hopefully it will be you.. :)
Once your a good enough leader for your mare to take notice of then you can work on the dance.. But we all have to learn the steps before the dance starts to work ..
Hang in there.. she looks like a real nice mare..

Reata exits.. leaving her cape on a hook for the next poster!!! :-)

[MyAmigoMaya]

Thanks for responding, Reata! She actually is pasture-boarded 24/7, and other than a glucosamine/MSM/chondroitin cookie, doesn't get any extra feed beyond her hay, so she has plenty of natural time outside (although this seems to be why she's so herd-bound). I like to work with her in the round pen, because she seems to pick up on things pretty quickly there, but since I don't want to ask her to go faster than a walk there doesn't seem to be too much I can do in there. (: Anyone have any ideas for that, btw?

Just to clarify, the way she was acting on Saturday didn't seem like a normal spring outburst of energy. It felt more like serious evasive action--she wasn't listening to me at *all* and all her energy was directed toward getting out of that arena and back to her pasture. I really felt she was so not with me at that moment that she would have gone over backward or ran through the wall if I kept pushing it! She's had little energy bursts before and it didn't feel like that--with her lameness she can't do much, but on the same day the video you saw was taken she was feeling a little fresh to start off with and did some jigging and broke into a trot a couple times. (She didn't start limping until about 15 minutes in, which is when the video is--I stopped riding shortly after that.) But even then she was just fresh, not panicky, like she seemed on Saturday. I'm not too worried about a horse being fresh, especially with the big drastic weather change we've had. With her, though, she just seemed like a completely different horse, which is why I think pain must have been involved somewhere--in her mouth or her legs or wherever. I just wish I could figure out what it was!

I am definitely going to continue with groundwork and getting her to respect me. You're definitely right that I'm still not being "boss" enough with her. I think I worry too much about her holding stuff against me and being resentful of me, so I need to let go of that and stop trying to be her best friend for right now. (:

Thanks for the suggestions and thanks for complimenting her!
Sarah

[kennewman]

golly, bless you folks,,,let's visit on this one. it is always for certain the folks that put themselves in these situations, always seem to have the biggest of hearts. however , with the risk of sounding on the malevolent side pretty high, you can come into this exhortationing visit being aware that this ole man suggests only the truth, not wanting to hurt your feelings or your horse. no matter how big and soft your heart is, your horse is lame. your horse is lame because his feet hurt. maybe because of navicular disease or not , or because of the extreme barefoot shoeing or not ,it does not matter. the fact is your horse is lame because his feet hurt. you might strongly consider along with your good farrier and good vet just how to get that stuff fixed. get it fixed 'before' you are accused by your horse of selfishly trying to ride the horse. those feet are the 'only' means of making 'tracks' , so they'd be pretty important to that horse, and you too, for your safety, if you plan to go anywhere with the little mare.

some nice person bumped me reference your horse because they thought it is was rude to breed a truly navicular mare. that's a whole 'nother subject kid. if it all points to 'navicular' , why would anyone take the risk of passing those genes on to her babies? some of you folks, [readers] are very intelligent most are pretty aware of how that all works so it is not up to me to make that call on your horse. the breeder would be suspect at least in my family and friends. sorry to roam there but you will be fighting those stories the rest of this mare's life with you.

no kidding , a lot of good smiles can be maintained with-out riding this mare yet. get resourceful, you don't need a round pen, just present a good and interesting life to your horse, keeping them busy and interested will go a long way to relieve your and her concerns about the herd - bound stuff. she is just telling you she would rather be with her pasture pals than you. with a little experience in that area you won't be so concerned about her little display of such a basic. it is less an incident than nature working , and she is totally in the right, as far as she is concerned. the 'moment' you agree with that statement is the moment she is going to ' start' to get over it. she'll not ever get over it until you are successful in being her main focus. there are lotsa horses out there that 'dig' being with their human. you can safely bet it does not come with the grade of, or amount of carrots given. when your ending shot on one of your posts pleaded, " btw ' looking for ideas' "caught my eye, it is pleasing for us to see, and easier to respond to someone like you , especially while your the brain is still working better than your big soft heart.

ideas? you prolly know all of these , but a preet good place to start: alotta rubbing, with the direction of her hair, not only the hair you see , but also that which hasn't yet appeared, hasn't growed yet to be technical. yep, a good firm rubbing with your hand on every hair on her body. take the time to count'em if that helps. step her hip over a step or two , lightly as it takes or as heavily as it takes,, she will help you on when to release. she'll help you get lighter so she can get lighter. listen closely [to her]. step her fore quarters over, release even before she moves them, [they are sore]

cause her to step back a step or two and then lead her to another spot in the pasture or barnyard or where ever. staying away from patterns, even at feeding time, is a great way to reduce her knowing what is next so that her thoughts can flow into the idea of waiting for you. backing , it only has to be a step or two, straight back, on the oblique, onto a radius line, when you run outta stuff to do,,,,,,,,,begin the whole deal again , with out any sequence, you have more time than your horse anyway. so just begin again. if you can get into some safe pen , learn to lead her by the mane . then her foot, then her belly , or saddle, then learn half - passes, then side passes, then to lead up to and over and through a variety of junk, sandfilled milk jugs, tarps, logs, tow some stuff around , always remember, start with things that are less threatening so as not to scare your horse beyond control. when she appears scared, she is, rub her, it helps calm them. invite and enlist your dogs, or your friends dogs to help,,see,,, there is no end to putting this horse to work still without riding off to hollywood. knowing just how good you are with the left horse , now go to the right horse and start from the top. go to the other horse and if you are of the bent, it is fun for the horse to learn to yield on any part of his body. being careful not to get into a mode 'yourself' involving being dependant on queues, just remember you have the easy part in that horses always go to the RELEASE, when properly handled. they have when this oleman was a little boy, and they still do 169 years later. thaat is probably not going to change , so let us work with it , diligently.

there will be a moment when you learn how to release with the horse, she be lighter, and less afraid, and less herd bound, and hopefully by then her clinical situation comes thru for her, could be weeks, or even months, you get on her and ride her with the same diligence you gave her from this new beginning . do not dilly dally, get to it , she'll probably find good reason to be lighter and softer to the human side. because you have taken this 'downtime' opportunity to work 'with' her so that she can work 'with' you. be also aware , gang, this is awful easy to type about, from sunny florida, it does not cure a lame horse , it does not help the tooth fairy, it does help the poor horseman involved to reduce the fear of failure by visiting about ideas to thwart the dreaded 'down time', can't wait til she's sound, this is costing an arm and a leg , and why me lord , blues.

[Two Cents]

Hi Sarah,

Oh My.

The bad news is you're really small, really inexperienced, you've got a messed-up horse.

The good news is you're really small, really inexperienced, you've got a messed-up horse.

Your size is not a problem with this horse or any other. I'm a bit over 200#. OK, quite a bit over. Most of the colts I get to work with are five or six times my weight. They're 50 times faster and stronger. The fact is every single one of them could easily overpower me. You just have to refuse to allow this to become a tug-of-war. Some of the finest horsemanship I have ever seen has been from a very old, very small, very weak, very frail, but very wise man. You'll do fine.

The inexperience is fine, too. Most of us in previous lives learned just about every bad habit, every last bit of dumb-ass self-defeating baloney you could think of. It is hard to let go of, and maybe we never do completely. This can be a huge advantage for you.

If you had a horse that was absolutely A-OK, a little angel in every way, no behavioral problems, knew everything good a horse should know, .......I guess that would be fine, but you wouldn't learn much.

Add it all up and you have a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow and really understand how to get things working for you and your horse. It will carry over with every horse you ever come in contact with for your whole life.

Get yourself a copy of Buck Brannaman's Groundwork book and video. You can order it new, get it used on eBay, borrow it, whatever. Study it, think about it, memorize it. We can go through all the same stuff here, but it is really difficult to put it to use without seeing it. The things you learn in that book will get you started off right with this horse and every other.

Ken's right about the feet. Think pretty hard about that whole issue.

If you do get back to riding, and there is no problem with the mouth and teeth, use a snaffle. O-ring, D-ring, Eggbutt, full cheek, whatever. Nothing fancy is required. But it really needs to be a single joint smooth snaffle. Sweet iron with inlaid copper seems to work best for the greatest number of horses. Your horse is braced up nose to tail and all the way to the ground. A snaffle is the only way you're going to get that working for you.

I read a note from a friend recently that had me thinking. There are very few absolutes in all this horse stuff, but this is one of them.

"Manners and confidence in a horse are one and the same." You CANNOT have one without the other. If you DO have one you WILL have the other.

You've got a job getting this horse confident. A real job. The feet are hurting. That's the big issue. But even if not, the horse has no idea what to do with the feet, no idea how to respond to a bit, a rein, a leg, a halter, anything. You will not be able to work through any of the problems you are concerned about unless you start at the beginning with your horse's education.

Start with the Groundwork book and video.

Take care, Sarah.

[MyAmigoMaya]

That's some great advice on the groundwork and rubbing and spending some "down time" working with her. I'm definitely going to try that. I wanted to try some t-touches with her Sunday but she was waaaaaaay out far in the pasture with the herd. (: I can also really see your point about her lameness being more of an issue as far as her riding than we thought it was. She seems completely fine and sound when I first start riding, and I've been thinking it's fine to ride for a little bit and then get off when she starts getting sore, but now that I think about it I can also see how this would cause her to not have much confidence in being ridden--if it ends when she's in some pain.

So I guess for right now I'll keep doing groundwork and forego riding for a couple weeks at least--and if I ride at all it'll be after her teeth are done and just for a minute or two, sitting on her back and getting off before she has a chance to get sore. I knew it would be a while before she's really rideable when I got her, and I'm okay with that--I think I just got so excited when I did ride her and things went so well. (: Thanks for all the advice!

[Excess]

Sarah I have all of dearest Buck's videos. Groundwork, Colt Breaking, Making of a Bridlehorse series and Trailer Loading and Problem solving. We'll have to set the next rainy (snowy) day aside as a Buck day so you can watch the videos. I hope to get the videos that Reata also recommended to me.....

[MyAmigoMaya]

Thanks Exy--perfect! And now we don't have any competition for your TV. (:

[Horse Crazy]

Well looky here if it isnt Jeau and Sarah ! LOL I bet you will never guess who this is :) Heres a hint, last June at the Julie Goodnight clinic in Attica ring any bells Jeau?

[Excess]

Well looky here if it isnt Jeau and Sarah ! LOL I bet you will never guess who this is :) Heres a hint, last June at the Julie Goodnight clinic in Attica ring any bells Jeau?

Lol! I would guess it's Tom or Deb...since it's the only people at Attica that knows me AND Sarah that was Attica? There were 20 something people in that clinic!

[Excess]

Well looky here if it isnt Jeau and Sarah ! LOL I bet you will never guess who this is :) Heres a hint, last June at the Julie Goodnight clinic in Attica ring any bells Jeau?

or Ernie? Now I'm really intrigued! Please don't keep me guessing.

[Horse Crazy]

Ummmm Jeau, how quickly you forget !! I didnt meet Sarah there. I will give you another hint. I met you and Sarah at the BAR. LOL