What do you think of this video

[Excess]

Someone posted this on another board. I thought I'd post it here:

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[reata]

OMG!!! I guess thats one way to do it.. :(

[alanbell]

Reata, what do you see that causes the sad smiley? I see an older video of a gentleman that is already deceased. I see a fellow throw a pretty nice loop on an un-gentled horse. I see a fellow with a LOT of feel. He uses advance and retreat or pressure and release in just about EVERYTHING he does. He never gets into a real tug of war with the horse. Always the pressure and release. I see a man use the horses innate nature to help the horse accept having his legs and hooves handled. Notice how he uses pressure to make it the horses idea to lift it's hind foot. Also notice how he is continually using pressure and release as he mounts. He never gives the horse something to resist and brace against by continually pumping so that the pressure is there and then it is gone. In working a group of truly feral mustangs I discovered alot of these same things and they just came to me naturally from the horse so it is very rewarding to me to see someone do it and that he was probably doing it before I was born is even better. By continually, pumping his hands and applying pressure and then taking it back you are able to gain inches in the direction you desire with out allowing the horse time to brace. I even count 3 sec. and then release. He did it even quicker and I can see how the horse is calmer when he finishes than when he began. I see that this is the beginning of an communication based on feel that the horse readily and easily understands. He never holds the horse but allows the horse to find the place where it can stand. He rewards the slightest try and waits for the horse to come to where he is before they both go on together as seen in the way he handles the front hoof even holding it lightly with his own leg when it would be VERY easy for the horse to push his leg down. I don't see anything that would make a person have a sad face so I am VERY curious if I am missing something. What are you seeing that I am missing somehow?
Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[Mares Tales]

He was smart to stay up close to that horse. I saw him pet the horse on the withers when he got up on it. With handling the feet he seemed to do an ok job but...............

Did anyone ever see that horse lick or chew, relax in its ribcage or drop its head? I doubt if anyone would have heard it sigh either. I saw a stiff poll and a tight mouth. I saw a horse tolerating, not turning loose. Did he prepare the horse for when he jumped off on the offside? He got just the reaction the horse would be expected to do.....jump to the side when a body jumps into view without preparation.

Hey, I am not one to chop up somebody else but.......my mind kept saying "What a nice horse to tolerate" and "horses put up with so much from people." The horse might have come close to disengaging when it jumped to the side so many times but, I don`t think that guy was aware of what that means because he sure didn`t encourage it in a way that meant much to the horse. The horse that walked away on its own at the end of the video was a relaxed horse and thats what I would have wanted to see on the end of the lead before the man got done with him. You want to end up calmer than when you started, I saw a braced horse with its head up in the air and a tight back all the way through. The only reason that the horse was calmer was because the session was over with, not because he was now sure with the handler. I saw a horse that "was done to.....not one that really participated." Was it wrong what he did? Well he got it sat on and to some that would seem like a success. Getting it ridden is the goal but.......its what happens getting to that point that really matters, expecially to the horse and should be to the rider so that they can be safe later on. I have a feeling that "in spite of" its handling, it ended up alright to some peoples standards. I can think of quite a few that would have gutted or neutered that guy, bucked him off, kicked him and run over him getting away.

You asked what did you think of this video.....I almost didn`t comment because I didn`t want to be negative but, its hot outside and I`d rather talk about horses than clean the house.

Nice althletic horse. Thanks for posting that Exy.

[alanbell]

You bring up some interesting points. I think that for the time probably 30 to 40 yrs ago that he did a fantastic job. He was pumping his hands rhythmically on the horses withers and neck and moving his weight rhythmically when he mounted that is part of why what he did worked. Not simply petting but actually keeping the horse from bracing. If you get a chance to work a colt that is pulling back try pumping the lead and feel how it works. It is the feeling of catching an egg. He seems to have been a contemporary of the Dorrances and worked and did demos in the same area so I would be surprised if they did not know him or at least know of him. It would be interesting to ask Margaret. While the horse may not have licked and chewed and shied away when he dropped off on its off side I have also seen a horse lick and chew before anybody mounts lower it's head and all that accept the saddle quietly and then go to bucking as soon as mounted. Ray Hunt was starting it. Does that mean Ray missed something? I was in a colt starting with Bryan Neubert and one colt bucked for basically 3 days. Despite licking and chewing on the lead when saddled the horse bucked. It lowered its head and accepted the flag but it still bucked. On the video "the First Week" some of those colts act worse than Mr. Linfoots colt and this is on the 2nd day of work. I'd also imagine judging from his feel and timing that he would handle each horse as it came and that with a rougher colt he might take a different tact. I doubt that what we see in this video is the same thing he did with every horse. Like everyone else I bet he adjusted to suit each horse and he probably had great success or else we would not be watching his video all these years later. While it may not have been the "ideal" I think that he did a bit more than just get the horse mounted and that by not causing the horse to have any reason to fear humans the next sessions will go better "because" of him rather than in spite of him. It is far too easy to have a bad experience with a green colt and have it taint future encounters. Interesting observations though and I like hearing and then looking for the different perspectives.
Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[Mares Tales]

Alanbell, of course every horse is different and it is wise that you acknowlege that. Which brings me to the exact point you made, and that is that some horses buck and some don`t in spite of the best start. Just because the grey colt in the video didn`t buck does not mean it had a good start. IMO

"If you get a chance to work a colt that is pulling back try pumping the lead and feel how it works." Why not prepare it so it doesn`t feel the need to pull back? Why not supple the horse so that the horse doesn`t feel the need to defend itself and brace against you. I would have liked to have seen more disengaging of the hind and forequarters, driving and drawing, softening the horses ribcage with the horse stepping under. I would have liked to have seen more "feel" used, more consideration for the horse and more opportunities for the horse to participate. Yes, he got the horse mounted but was he just getting by? I agree, 30 and 40 years ago, this kind of horsemanship was not as popular or well known as it is today so maybe we have to excuse the man in the video and give him some slack.

I used to start horses the conventional english way;.....on the longe, without that much groundwork........I just didn`t know any better and I never got bucked off doing it that way. BUT....now I know a better way and read horses better and know more than I used to and.........I still may get bucked off, there are no guarantees that a horse will not buck. Different horses are different, they are all individuals. A person does the best they can to PREPARE them so the horse doesn`t feel threatened and want to get rid of the saddle, the rider. Didn`t Tom say that you try and leave the buck in them? (How did we get on the subject of bucking ;-D Horses can lick and chew and the handler may still not be getting all the way down to the horses feet enough thoroughout a session to make a difference in the horse. It is the whole picture and the more I get into this kind of horsemanship the more I realize it really is all about the feet; that keeps hitting me in the head (figuratively) over and over again. I didn`t see the man in the video attempt to get all the way down to the horses feet, to soften its defenses through groundwork that could have made more sense to the horse and build confidence in the horse. Sure, some things helped, like handling the horses feet but, a lot was lacking especially using movement to help the horse and could have been so much better IMO.

I wish we could see this horse a week later being ridden at all three gaits. I wonder if that horse would be following a feel? I wonder if it bucked when he asked it to go. If we saw it moving with a rider on, then we might have more to talk about. Anyway, I value your opinion. Good discussion.

[FrancaV]

Aside from what Mares said - with which I agree - did anyone else think that the colt was too young and immature physically to have someone getting on him? I noticed the guy sat very far forward which I guess was good, but still - if it were my colt I wouldn't have even thought about climbing on for at least another year or two.

It is a good discussion - gives each of us an opportunity to point out what looked good and what looked not so good, and why. :) I really, really, wanted the guy to let that colt move around him instead of shutting him down and holding him so much. As Mares said, he never got to the colt's feet. He got the colt to stand still and put up with being handled and mounted, but he was "upside down" and braced the whole time as though he were waiting for it to be over. And I think that's exactly why the colt walked off softly afterwards - because it was over, and not because he'd come to any real feeling of relaxation about being handled in that session.

While this fellow may have known the Dorrances, it looks as though he was working from a whole different angle. The idea of getting a horse "gentled and mounted" within 30 minutes seems contrary to what the Dorrances or Ray Hunt would have been doing at that time. Perhaps it's just me, but I get a bit of a negative vibe whenever rapidity of results is stressed as a positive thing in any significant way. It's one of my issues with Clinton Anderson, for a present-day example. But anyway, thanks all for the interesting observations!

[red]

the 1970's....hmmm. now those were some times, eh? I would say that for his day and age, this man was prolly a long ways ahead of his peers. Not to say I liked everything I saw...and I think given the 8 mm tape, alot of nuance was lost...(except that nasty appy tail wringing...lol)...remembering that his generation was used to snubbin a horse up, blindfolded, and stepping on...whippin and spurin till one or the other gave out...or tying a horses head around in the sun for hours at a time, or laying them down and puttin a tarp over them, for hours on end...to take the "sting" outta him...40 years ago, the things that were considered normal, would just make us fall down today.. least this guy is attempting to offer the horse a chance at partnership...allowing him to think, even for just a second...or three. Hindsight is an incredible tool. Will put this video in my tool box, and be thankful that 40 years down the road, we are more aware. Simple Franca, why he sat so far fowards...with the pressure near the withers, it made it hard for this horse to buck, given his high headed conformation, and the way his neck comes out of his shoulder..he may not be as much of a bucker, as he was likely to rear...his evasive moves were upright, and forward.. This was a highly charged horse to begin with, looking at his body language..he may have been a little sweetheart in his pen, and maybe this was the first time anyone asked him to do something he did not want to do...nice rope toss, tho. All n all, for the time period, this was about as good a go, as a colt could hope for...Read in between the lines of Rays books, and see about the horses he talks about, before he started on this path..both he and Buck have asked these horses for forgiveness....we all have a long long ways to go...and looking back sure is a nice...helps me appreciate that 40 years from now, wonder what they will think of us?

love,
red

[JRW]

I have seen that before with the verbal narration... it must be somewhere else on youTube. This time watching it, the horses tail really caught my eye. It is quite expressive.

I also appreciate what the man is doing given the period he was doing it in. Actually, I suspect that most horse trainers around here, still use that form of training.

Here is an interesting webpage about the guy:
http://equineexpo.com/home/horse_books/linfoot.asp

That leads to the mans own commentary about the video:
http://equineexpo.com/home/horse_books/how_to_handle_horses_all_kinds_william_r_billy_lin foot.asp

I think it is extremely interesting. Thanks for posting it!
Yrs,
JRW

[reata]

Hi Alan, I do agree with most of your observations on this video. But as I said.. Its one way to do it..I didn't know it was an old video, and I have never heard of Billy Linfoot..So I guess with the age of the video he did a pretty good job..at least he didn't hurt the horse in any way ..But with what we know today he did leave a lot to be desired..
Ray always says.. Your not trying to catch, mount, bridle, saddle, etc., etc., your getting him ready to catch, mount, bridle, etc. I didn't see a lot of getting him ready.. Maybe he did prepare that hind leg.. :-)
The ringing tail and the expression on the horse made me very uncomfortable.
The horse was encouraged to stand braced and not asked to move and did not even know that he could move his feet if he had too .. When he did move, it was not soft.. To me it looked like he stood with his feet stuck until he had to leap to escape.
The horses expression changes a little when he does get astride and he tries to work his very tight mouth..hes not given any time to soak on this and I don't think its important to Mr Linfoot. It sure is important to me .. and my horses..
The horse is asked to face up and at times there is a bend in him but again I don't think this is important to Mr Linfoot. He does not seem to encourage it..
Yep there is pressure and release and the horse has nothing much to brace against but it is still braced..and tight..and he never in the video did take a step with him aboard.
In my mind this horse was flooded by a very persistent human ..Who did not hurt him ..But still had his way with him ..
I'm glad we have come a ways since then ..

Here is a link to a very old Aussie horseman.. (1950 film) Kel Jeffrey changed the way most Aussies started horses back in the olden days. LOL Our old guy makes your old guy look pretty good!!! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr456F53DXI

[reata]

Mares Tales said..
"Horses can lick and chew and the handler may still not be getting all the way down to the horses feet enough thoroughout a session to make a difference in the horse. It is the whole picture and the more I get into this kind of horsemanship the more I realize it really is all about the feet; that keeps hitting me in the head (figuratively) over and over again."
Me too Mares... ME TOO!!! :-)
"Control the life in the body through the legs to the feet" RH

[reata]

Thanks JRW for the link to Mr Linfoots description of what he was doing..
What he was doing was about what he said he was doing.. and I did notice he said he does about the same with all horses..
The film was 1970, 20 years latter than our Kel Jeffrey, and there sure was a big improvement..LOL I wonder what they will think of our methods 30-40 years from now.
BTW I do have a DVD of some old footage of Ray Hunt..Back to the Beginning Part 1
I wonder what year that footage was taken??? Ray sure looks young!!

[alanbell]

I am very glad that we all got to see this video and that we are living in these times and can now appreciate that even with as good a job as he did (for the times) we all recognize that things can and should be better "for the horse". That is the greatest commentary of all!
p.s. If you put that tail in the water he'd take off like a motorboat!
Vaya Con Dios, Alan Bell

[JRW]

Reata,
Given that this guy is a Polo player, how would you rate his methods against the typical Aussie polo trainer? Don't all polo players everywhere just tend to shortcut training to the bone?

One of my more colorful friends is a horse-trader. (Do not do business with him, he will take advantage of you!). In his profession, the objective is to buy them cheap, get them rideable, and get them off the lot. He takes every shortcut known to humans. He has never owned a horse long enough to "finish" it and I suspect that many of the methods he uses don't set the horse up so it CAN be finished without some rehabilitation by the new owner. He is like a cross between Linfoot and Anderson. He probably churns about 100+ horses a year.

It's an unfortunate economic reality, but for the most part the horses are better off because they aren't just headed for the meat market or perishing of neglect out in some weedy pasture. The general public doesn't know enough to understand there is a difference in a horse that was trained one way or the other and horses are only worth what people will pay. Or at least that is what another horse-trader told me.

Yrs,
JRW

[Excess]

Wow great discussion everyone. I very much enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. I really wasn't able to form an opinion on this...as I have very limited experience. And with my limited experience all I can say is "I've seen a lot worse, and it could have been a lot worse" I did notices the tail ringing (which I think a lot of Appy's do! There's a cute little barrel appy in these parts that wrings his tail on the run home and its almost like hes trying to use it as a propeller. too cute) and other things....stiffness...but all in all I enjoyed it.

[KpH]

Great old Video.
I saw Dr Linfoot in Fresno one day, Livestock Symposium, while in college. It was the same day I met Ray Hunt , Tom Dorrance and Theo Hill of Aust. for the first time. Growing up in the SF Bay area where Linfoot lived and worked, saw him a few times. In those days he was regarded as some kind of 'kook'. But, I was influenced by his demonstrations and so was my ex Pat Parelli.
He may have een more influenced by the way he started unbroke horses than by anyone else in the industry.
anyway, very cool video. I think what was most impacting was the way Billy Linfoot used wide open, firm hands, as well as his entire body, all over the horse, to help the horse feel of him and feel his 'intentions'. Stuff that works.
K4H