Circling down and hindquarters

[dale]

I've been working a the circling down exercise with hands in front of the shoulder, then asking for a front foot to reach over, and then when your hand comes behind the shoulder then the front foot comes behind, which builds on the turn on the hindquarters.

Horse is now confused about the one rein stop. Both exercises use the hand coming back and he's getting pretty nifty about the turning on the hindquarters, but now the one rein is weaker. I think it's not enough response from my leg, and not picking up on the different leg positions.

Is this just a case of him learning the difference of where my leg is? How are the arm positions different between the two.

[FrancaV]

Hi, Dale! Wish I could sit on my horse right now and do all three: turn on hindquarters, turn on forehand, and one-rein stop. Then maybe I could remember better what it is I do because we've finally got these things working pretty well for us. What I do remember is how long it took me to get it sorted out so that neither I nor my horse was confused, LOL!

Let's see ... it should be a tad easier to make the one-rein stop clear to your horse again than just a turn on the forehand because, well, you want to stop. So for the one-rein stop what I do is bring my hand a lot farther - to my hip - and hold till the horse steps under behind and stops. I use a tiny bit more leg on the inside if the hind needs encouragement to step under, but normally the leg is on at the beginning of the request help him balance (especially if it's really an "emergency") and then the leg comes off so he knows to stop his feet.

If all you want is a turn then you don't want to bring your hand too far around - mostly I think you're just tipping his head and the weight in your seatbones and your leg position help bring his body through. But boy, I wish I could do it first before trying to explain it. Anybody else?

[AWSpinks]

This is how I do it.

Hand position for hindquarters is a "lift" and close to the neck, for front end it is more "out" and "back".

You might make your leg cues with a little more difference. That is more forward for the front and more behind for the hindquarters. You can always close them back up later.

The most important thing is to wait on your horse to sort it out.

[Scout]

Just as AW Spinks said, to get the hind, lift your inside rein on a line with your horse's ear and close to the neck. I also get my weight a little forward and to the outside shoulder. To get the front, take your inside rein out to the side and back to lead them across. My weight is back to free up the front end to come across.

[reata]

Hi Dale, I'm not a big fan of the one rein stop. I think it burys the front end..But I DO make sure I have it in my kit bag with ALL my horses..
What I do like to do is step the hind over and bring the front through.
Some horses learn to separate this and can get real nice at it.. Others get a little stuck .. So its up to us to break it down a little more so the horse understands..
This is where feeling for the feet really helps .. so you can reward a correct step.
The guys above have given you good advise..and I do to agree with the slow down part.. Have a plan in your head what you want the horse to do.
Don't try to force it.. set it up and wait.
Know what foot you want to move and know when its free to move!!!
With your body, instead of thinking that your legs are asking for the front or the hind to step over, think about opening the other side leg, giving the horse a place to go. Sometimes we can put a horse in a bind by asking with one leg and not giving him anywhere to go with the other.. With your hands try not to let the "life" die.. keep your hands light and "alive" .. A horse can get pretty dull if your hands can't feel for his feet.
Try not to drill your horse at this and if you feel him getting bogged down go trot some place and then start over..the change will get the life back into both your bodies ..
Let's know how it goes..

[reata]

Sorry Dale I just reread your Question..
"I've been working a the circling down exercise with hands in front of the shoulder, then asking for a front foot to reach over, and then when your hand comes behind the shoulder then the front foot comes behind, which builds on the turn on the hindquarters."
Ask and wait for the horse to shift his weight back, so the leg can go behind..
How that can effect the ORS I don't really get the picture???
"Horse is now confused about the one rein stop. Both exercises use the hand coming back and he's getting pretty nifty about the turning on the hindquarters, but now the one rein is weaker."
Well if hes getting nifty its because his weight is on the hind legs.. As I said in my first post the ORS puts all the weight on the front end..as the hind legs step over..
Now I'm confused??? LOL :)

[red]

I am not even going to attempt to sort this one out all goooood sound advice, and I can see it in my minds eye...but still, ...I think we need a dose of Mares in here, and let her articulate.

Mares, where you be?

love,
red

[Mares Tales]

I stayed away from this one because when I read it I wasn`t sure what the problem was.

Reata and I talked about it this morning.

If we are not actually watching the person and watching the horse, we might give advice that`s confusing.

But.......I`ll take a stab at it anyway.

Dale said,
"I've been working a the circling down exercise with hands in front of the shoulder, then asking for a front foot to reach over, and then when your hand comes behind the shoulder then the front foot comes behind, which builds on the turn on the hindquarters.

Horse is now confused about the one rein stop. Both exercises use the hand coming back and he's getting pretty nifty about the turning on the hindquarters, but now the one rein is weaker. I think it's not enough response from my leg, and not picking up on the different leg positions.

Is this just a case of him learning the difference of where my leg is? How are the arm positions different between the two."


I could be totally off base here but........

I think you need to take your legs off and get re-acquainted to where your inside hand needs to be to influence that inside hind to step over. You need to spend some time experimenting to do this.

I think you have lost the feel for the foot being attached to the rein while you were trying to teach your horse what your legs mean. (nothing wrong with this, it`s just the progression of learning)

Get it good with getting that inside hind to step over with holding your inside rein in the correct position (you will know that its right when you get the desired response) and re-visit what it`s like to attach that foot to your hand. Let your legs be still until you get it.

Sometmes we have to revisit things we think have already learned so we can re-establish our feel, maybe just to refine, so we can get on the same page with our horse again when either of us gets confused. Getting all the way down to the feet is essential in doing that. It`s an acceptable part of making progress and glitches should be expected. IMO, whenever there is a problem.......always go back to the basics and see where the weakness is, even if you have to go back to your groundwork to find it. NO one should be ashamed of doing that, all great horsepersons know that they will always be revisiting the beginning.

[dale]

All wonderfull stuff! Thanks!

It's been a great lesson in finding the holes in things you have down fairly well. Although my one rein stop has things I'm not being perfect on, horse has happily been filling in the holes, and anticipating what I mean, and getting the end result.
Now that I'm asking for something else, and horse is picking it up nicely, he is filling in the ORS holes with a new filler...to go to the step over with front instead.
This problem is only when asking for a ORS - No issue when I ask for hindover from a standstill.
AWspinks - Lifting the rein is doing the trick! - keeping it clear in my mind how the rein cue is different between the two, and backing it up with a stronger leg.
By revisiting something basic, which I like to go back to the basics to reinforce confidence and connection, it brought me to this great AH-HA moment. I love the challenge in this as it has brought my riding to the next level of problem solving. I have all the time in the world to figure this out, which horse has already.Smart critters as they are...

[dale]

..and the weight shift Scout - forgot to mention that.

Those three things are moving us along in the right direction:

-Difference in rein cue. Even though I made a subtle change, it was more than enough to get us going in the right direction. (ask for less first...)
-Stronger, more defined leg
-Difference in riders position