View Full Version : Cisco Kid and the Changing Eye Problem
Wally sent me Cisco after Cisco's last trainer kicked him out of her barn for being too dangerous. She had spent some time in the hospital... I don't know the details. I could see why when he arrived... Cisco would check out and go into total flight behavior. His 18 months in captivity had not given him any trust in humans.
I was planning on just snubbing him up to a pony horse and riding him until he was broke, but I got stuck without a pony horse or a snubbing person. Now I am a grandmother with gray hair and everything, so while I might ride a snubbed bronc, I was not about to try to just ride him out. Even more problematic is that I don't usually have anyone around to help me as hubby works away all week. Cisco and I went to ground work. The mustang had already been through most of the natural horsemanship training stuff with his old trainers and we needed something else to make a breakthrough.
We worked on conditioned relaxation for months. I wanted to be able to ask him to calm down under any circumstances. I called it Mustang Sigh Training. We did some ESCT (Barbara Wrights protocol for traumatized animals) which helped allow us to get deeper into desensitization. I gave him some target training and he benefited from the sense that he had some control... he could choose to touch me or not. This made him very brave about most things.
He has a rope phobia... which may be residual from previous experience or may have come about from when I tried to tie him up to a tie blocker, but we have worked on it extensively. He will put his body against any kind of rope I ask him to and he will stick his head into a loop if I hold it out. I can throw loops, coils, threads, strings, etc all over him... but he still doesn't really like rope AT ALL. That's okay, we just have to notice it.
Now, I am wanting to start getting on him. I got him to give me his withers when I am on the fence or on a bucket, or whatever. He'll come to me either side. I want him to be able to look at me from the off side, so I have been giving him cookies by reaching over his back. He did just fine when I was on the left side, but when I was standing on the right side, he couldn't let me out of his sight long enough to get the cookie. It was then I started really understanding the problem I was up against.
Today I put him in a chute and started just petting him and reaching over his neck to give him cookies. I think I will do that for a couple of days. Might have to wear funny gloves, snap my fingers, etc., but I want him to accept whatever I might want to extend over his back. "No worries, Grandma loves me!"
I don't know what you call it, but there is a good groundwork exercise where you drop the rope on the off side of the horse, let the rope droop down around the rump, then you have the horse turn AWAY from you to face back up. Cisco failed at that miserably. Last winter I got hubby to help me one day with it. I was telling him, "Now, look, this is a little bit dangerous, you better plan an escape route if things go wrong" and withing a minute, Cisco had knocked hubby though a pipe fence. Lucky hubby wasn't hurt. I thought it was fear of ropes, but now I realize that it's fear of changing eye.
My plan is to work specifically on changing eye for the next week. We'll continue with the chute, then we'll do the groundwork exercise discussed above, and then we will start driving. My breaking plan is to do it bareback for the first couple of months, just little by little until he can accept some degree of pressure.
If anyone has any other suggestions for helping him get comfortable with changing eyes, I would like to hear about it.
Yrs,
JRW
don't tie the dummy on to him. That is my best advice.
love,
red
wait did I just hear you say, "no worries, grandma loves me?".. that he knocked your husband thru a pipe fence, all this on the heels of the
" mustang sigh training"? You know what? He doesn't respect you, or anything about the deal you are offering him...I am gonna go have an iced tea. Sometimes, I wonder, if we are on the same page. Sometimes to respect and honor a mustang, ya need to leave em alone, and throw hay to em...and respect them for the fact that they don't kill ya. You are bribeing him with cookies, which is not training, not communication, same as bribeing a kid with a cookie to stop poor behavior...food is not the reward, it is demeaning, and beneath his intelligence.
Hear me now, and listen to me later. Do not get on this horse, because you are "wanting to get on him". He has told you he is not quite up to that job, in many more ways than one. No matter how much ground work you think you have done, it is not enough, based on the things you report...And, besides, I enjoy your posts, and don't want you to get hurt.
love,
red
Red,
I am sorry, but you have no place telling me what I am or am not capable of. That is not what I asked, is it? You have no place telling me what is or isn't working since you don't have a clue what I am doing. I'm sorry, but you just have no right to make those kind of judgments, just as I would have no place in making judgments about your horses or you. Why don't you offer something constructive instead of destructive?
I don't need to have to defend my methods to you. How would you have any idea if the horse respects me or not? Really its just a way for you to put me down. You are way out of bounds. You don't have any idea of what my horse thinks. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
I've been starting and training horses since I was 16 years old... let's see, that's almost 40 years. I am still alive. Just because it is not what you would do, it doesn't make it wrong. Get a grip. The world is a big place.
JRW
whoopee jrw...
from the things you said, I figgured that you were able to judge your horse mo bedder...doesn't matter to me whatcha think...tie the dummy on to him, and see how that goes. Not asking you to defend yourself, your methods, your reasons your religion or you belief. You said he had pushed your husband thru the pipe panels, after several months of training...mustang sighing... so, get in his eye, don't get in his eye. He will mow you down again. If your reports were true, then you have answered your own questions, you "want" to ride him...that is your agenda, not his...your time frame, not his sorta kinda gonna slip up there bareback because it will be easier...why? because he is not ready for a saddle...duh. The optimim word is "NOT READY" From your own reports, you let it slip the horse is not ready...so I am not judging you, that doesn't make you right, or wrong...there is only what works, and doesn't work...from your paragraph, it sounds like you do not have the respect from him needed to proceed with riding bareback or with a saddle on this particular horse, does that take a rocket scientist to figure it out? Nope. Is that a problem for me? Nope. Could be a problem for you. The truth is it doesn't matter how old you are, how long you have been "training" horses, or not. bad trainers come is all shapes sizes, colors, genders..not limited to middle aged wimins.....and good trainers come in all shapes sizes, colors genders, have some age on em, or not...because, What matters is that you know how to read a horse, if you are asking him to join you. And apparently that is lacking, and is a work in progress. Just like everyone else..a work in progress. Go forward. That is the goal.
Thankfully you are right in oh so many areas, including the fact that the world is a big place...I was not attacking your little world...Meant no offense, but I gotta tell ya when someone talks 'bout a horse feeling safe because there is a cookie involved, or because "gramma loves you", I will not say you are wrong, but I will say that Cisco needs more credit than given, because he is quite the smart boy. That is YOUR choice, you will pay the price, and so will Cisco...then again,because in your glee to succeed, and "train" this horse, you are creating some holes...what the heck is gonna happen when there are no more cookies... that is how we learn, by trial and error. If it were workin, I would stand on the chair, and applaud...
I am not on the cookie path, nor the gramma loves you path. nor the tie a dummy on him path...doesn't make me right, doesn't make you wrong. It is, about respect, and willing partners, it is about respecting that he is not ready, for what ever reason, and,.. I sure was not attempting to put you down, only you can do that. I was not offering something destructive...I believe that there are several issues at work here, from what you stated.. and it sounds to me that there has been enough destruction in this little horses life...not caused by you. He still, has a long ways to go, if your reports are true..
How did I get the idea that the horse respects you or not...the fact that you need to bribe him with cookies to get him to yield. What that statement says, is that he is interested in cookies. Or maybe your reports were not as precise as you would like, maybe he Will do what you ask of him without a cookie, hell, JRW, I dunno. If you are dollin' out cookies, it is pretty apparent that he is not interested in being a partner, but cookies to him, dulls him up, so that he does not have to face the real issues.....The fact that after months of mustang sighs training, he would still ram someone thru a fence... Is another give away, that he is not comfortable in his space, when you are working with him. HE does not feel safe, yet. And while he feels unsafe, you can bet your beatles albums, that you are not safe. Despite your efforts, he just is not there, yet. So so simple. I am not out of bounds, not by a long shot. If I read your report, and thought you were headed for troubles, it would not be respectful of me to not speak up.
If you are offended, tough. You are a horse trainer, and need to have thicker skin. Or a giant bag of cookies. You pick.
Love,
red
reata
06-16-2007, 04:40 AM
JRW said.."If anyone has any other suggestions for helping him get comfortable with changing eyes, I would like to hear about it."
OMG where do I start???
JRW quite frankly you scare me... I have read your posts and bit my tongue on many occasions. We had a clash of heads while I was trying to help you a week or so back so I backed down and left ya too it..
I don't know what your agenda is?? Are you trying to impress us with your horse training techniques?? Are you asking for help or trying to let us know how GOOD you are??? Do you know your not the only GOOD HAND on this board?? And to be BLUNT the more ya write about your "methods" the more feathers your going to ruffle..
Ya need to take a step back, a BIG step!! Your horses are telling you something.. If you can't see it, then at least listen to what people on this board are saying because they can jollywell see it!!!!!
Your posts on what your doing with Cisco scare the pants off some of the posters on here. We are scared for Cisco and for YOU!!! and we don't even know YOU!!
Get yourself off to a clinic with a GOOD clinician.. Not one of the "fluff" cowboys or the "touchy feely" ladies, they will just take your money and get you hurt!!
Go see Ray, Buck, Bryan, Harry or Joe.. Go straight to the top and get the truth and for goodness sake Please Listen!!!
As for changing eyes .. the horse IS comfortable changing eyes.. hes been changing eyes since he was born ..he just gets worried when he sees YOU popping in and out of his blind spot.. Now what does that tell YOU??? :eek:
FrancaV
06-16-2007, 05:18 AM
Hi, JRW,
I'd like to to try to help if I can, but before I do I want to apologize if I babble. I'm very tired and I'm at the start of what will likely be a 40-hour day. Yes, I know days are supposed to have only 24 hours in them, LOL, but I'm working a 24-hour auto race in France.
JRW, please don't take anything I say personally. If it helps, pretend I'm answering someone else's snippets below. Because honestly, lots of people face difficult situations with troubled horses. It doesn't matter how the trouble got in there; we've all got to work with the horse in front of us.
And I can only work with what you tell me, so if I've got something wrong please let me know where and what so I can understand better.
I could see why when he arrived... Cisco would check out and go into total flight behavior.Of course we feel bad for a horse in this state - it's not a happy place to be. But this horse - one who moves his feet and flees - is a much safer horse to be around than one who has been taught to stuff his discomfort and fear down inside.
I was planning on just snubbing him up to a pony horse and riding him until he was brokeCan you explain why you think this is a good plan?
Cisco and I went to ground work. The mustang had already been through most of the natural horsemanship training stuff with his old trainers and we needed something else to make a breakthrough.Groundwork sounds like a good plan, but how do you know what his old trainers did with him? You need to do what works, not "something different", because you have no idea what his experiences were before. It doesn't matter what someone may have told you, all you know for sure is what you see in front of you now. Sometimes it's better not to know anything at all about a horse's history and just let him tell you, because he will always tell the truth about himself. We need to learn his language and listen to what he says.
We worked on conditioned relaxation for months. I wanted to be able to ask him to calm down under any circumstances. I called it Mustang Sigh Training. We did some ESCT (Barbara Wrights protocol for traumatized animals) which helped allow us to get deeper into desensitization.How do you ask a horse to calm down? I don't know anything about this outside of the psychology course I took about 30 years ago. All I know is that a conditioned response is not the same thing as a willing response.
I gave him some target training and he benefited from the sense that he had some control... he could choose to touch me or not.Target training I have seen; that is also conditioned response. You find out whether or not the animal wants the cookie badly enough to do something he is afraid of or thinks is of no importance. IOW, the choice for him really was whether or not to go for the cookie. I've said it before: I think this type of training can be useful as a tool for very specific tasks but it doesn't build any real trust or feel between the human and the animal.
He has a rope phobia... [snip] we have worked on it extensively. He will put his body against any kind of rope I ask him to and he will stick his head into a loop if I hold it out. I can throw loops, coils, threads, strings, etc all over him... but he still doesn't really like rope AT ALL. That's okay, we just have to notice it.The fact that all that time and energy has gone into desensitizing him to rope and you can still clearly see that he does not like rope at all indicates to me that you have not yet accomplished the task of helping him feel comfortable with rope. You've taught him to perform for you but how does he feel about it? You've made a big deal out of rope and now, "that's OK, we just have to notice it"? You're quitting on him by leaving him in a place where rope is a significant object in his life that he still doesn't feel good about. But since what you've already done hasn't worked, more of the same isn't going to help. This is just what it looks like to me from your description, but maybe it's time to try something else?
Now, I am wanting to start getting on him.Why? Why now?
I want him to be able to look at me from the off side, so I have been giving him cookies by reaching over his back. He did just fine when I was on the left side, but when I was standing on the right side, he couldn't let me out of his sight long enough to get the cookie.More conditioned response training. This is where this technique falls flat, because (IMO) unfortunately it has nothing to do with horsemanship.
It was then I started really understanding the problem I was up against.What problem - the "changing eye problem" in your subject line? I'd look at it a little differently. The "changing eye issue" is not the problem; it's merely a symptom of a greater problem. When you address the greater problem and get that worked out, the horse will take care of the eye himself.
Today I put him in a chute and started just petting him and reaching over his neck to give him cookies. I think I will do that for a couple of days. Might have to wear funny gloves, snap my fingers, etc., but I want him to accept whatever I might want to extend over his back. "No worries, Grandma loves me!"Why would you put him in a chute? The horse should always be allowed to move when desensitizing him to anything. This goes back to the other thread and choices. You're taking away his choices by putting him in a chute. Anything that takes away his choices should be, IMO, a Last Resort. Like in a veterinary emergency and you've got to get a job done, right now. (Which is why I prefer tranqs to twitches whenever possible in such situations, but that's another topic.)
If you constrain him, you will teach him to put up with whatever you do to him in that chute because he has no choice can't move his feet and get away if he wants to. You're not giving him the opportunity to find the release on his own. A horse that is taught not to move his feet when he's worried is a dangerous, dangerous, horse. This is where you get horses that ultimately won't go forward - that will finally get so frustrated that they buck and rear, because they know what it feels like to be trapped and don't know how else to escape.
there is a good groundwork exercise where you drop the rope on the off side of the horse, let the rope droop down around the rump, then you have the horse turn AWAY from you to face back up. Cisco failed at that miserably.Of course he did. He has no idea how to yield to pressure. It is a good exercise, but you're not actually asking him to turn away from you; you're asking him to follow the feel of the rope, no matter which way it goes.
I thought it was fear of ropes, but now I realize that it's fear of changing eye.No, it's being unable to yield to pressure of any kind. I know excellent horsefolks who will absolutely, positively, not set foot in a stirrup unless the horse is first giving to pressure.
My plan is to work specifically on changing eye for the next week. We'll continue with the chute, then we'll do the groundwork exercise discussed above, and then we will start driving. My breaking plan is to do it bareback for the first couple of months, just little by little until he can accept some degree of pressure.He has to do more than merely accept pressure. He must learn to yield to it. Otherwise you won't be able to reliably and safely catch him, lead him or drive him - much less ride him - with or without a saddle.
If he doesn't know how to yield to pressure he is completely unprepared to be a willing partner with a human. It's our job to prepare our horses for the things we want them to do. Teaching a horse to yield to the slightest pressure on the rope: to put his head down a little at a time until he will follow the lead smoothly all the way to the ground; then to bend his head, his neck, his whole body and step his hind end under himself - and to be soft and wait on me (not anticipate and push, which is what conditioning often teaches) throughout the process ... all this would be my very first goal with a horse like Cisco. And he's apparently been taught to push on humans so I'd make every effort never to yield my space to him when he pushes in on me. A horse moves into my space only when requested or invited to by me and I'd be crystal clear on this with Cisco. I wouldn't take Step One further with him until he could do all of this with a relaxed mind and body.
If anyone has any other suggestions for helping him get comfortable with changing eyes, I would like to hear about it.My suggestion is to forget the eyes for now. Don't try to micromanage his every move. Many of these are things a horse ultimately should take care of himself, but you need to give him the tools and the confidence to do it first. You've already spent a lot of time working with this horse so I know your heart's in the right place. Don't make the same mistake other folks make and decide that because so much time has passed he must be ready for the next step. Take the time it takes. At every step along the way. Don't move on to the next step till he understands this step. But then do move on, don't drill. As he becomes comfortable with more things you'll be able to change things up and keep it interesting for him.
What's ahead isn't easy but you're obviously not someone who shies away from a challenge. If you're willing to consider making some more changes (I know you've made a lot of changes already) in the way you've related to horses your whole life and look at the process a little differently, I think you can make a huge positive change in this horse's life.
FrancaV
06-16-2007, 05:29 AM
Go see Ray, Buck, Bryan, Harry or Joe.. Go straight to the top and get the truth and for goodness sake Please Listen!!!I'd like to add Peter Campbell to that list. He's the real deal, too.
Thank you for a very thoughtful reply.
I think in your horse paradigm every thing you said is absolutely true, but in my reality there is a different picture. Cisco does follow the rope, Cisco does yield to pressure. He distrusts rope but thinks it is a magical thing. He groundties, he highlines. He will go stand by his highline lead rope if I forget to take it down and fall asleep with it against his face.
This horse has radically changed since I got him last fall. He is now an affectionate animal that comes when you call him. He snorts only rarely. He is not a bronc. When I go out side he stands at the paddock fence and hangs his head over waiting for me to pet him. He is more loyal than all my other critters put together. I don't need a rope to take him places, I just ask him to follow.
Hes got that READY FOR THE NEXT STEP written all over him, but I know there are still problems that are going to come up if I don't head them off now. I didn't know what the problem really was until the other day because I thought it was still just fear of rope. I thought that the people that had him before may have beaten him with a rope or that they were having too much fun roping mustangs at the BLM corrals. There are a lot of ways a horse could be made to be fearful of something and it would be hard to overcome.
You may think that changing eyes is not the problem, and that's okay for you to jump to that conclusion, but I am going to work on it as if it was the problem and we will see what happens. I'll bet the fear of ropes goes away.
Yrs,
JRW
ps. My new camera is waiting for me... I will post some video and you will have a much clearer idea of what he is like.
FrancaV
06-16-2007, 09:30 AM
Thank you for a very thoughtful reply.You're welcome!
Cisco does follow the rope, Cisco does yield to pressure.OK, help! LOL. I'm not understanding something. If Cisco follows the rope, how is it he isn't looking at you with the other eye? If he truly yields to pressure and follows the rope you should be able to ask his head to go anywhere. For example, on the ground, if my mare is on the lead rope in front of me, say 5 feet away, I can lift the rope to my right and she will tip her head to her left, giving me her right eye. If I lift my rope to my left she'll give me her left eye. I can do this when she lines up beside me along the fence, too. I just toss the rope over her head in front of her nose to get the off side eye. The exercise you talked about - laying the lead rope on the off side of the horse and around the rear, asking him to come around and face you - also requires that he follow the feel of that rope, but takes it further. He should move his feet, step around softly with a bend in his body and wind up facing you. If he doesn't do these things then he does not reliably follow a feel on the rope.
He distrusts rope but thinks it is a magical thing. He groundties, he highlines. He will go stand by his highline lead rope if I forget to take it down and fall asleep with it against his face.Then he doesn't distrust rope. What's different about the ropes you describe are that they are a) not moving, unless he moves them, and b) not attached to a human on the other end.
I don't need a rope to take him places, I just ask him to follow.Are you sure? Can you load him on a trailer without a rope? Can you take him anywhere he doesn't want to go? I'm curious why you don't use a rope to lead him. You seem to find it easier to be with him when he's not on a lead rope. Could it be because he doesn't lead without resistance? I'm asking (not concluding) because I'm confused.
Hes got that READY FOR THE NEXT STEP written all over himHow so? What is it you're seeing in him that suggests he's ready? I don't think I've seen mention of that because the thread began on the subject of a problem you were having.
You may think that changing eyes is not the problem, and that's okay for you to jump to that conclusionIt wasn't a big leap - I got all of my info from you. I still don't understand many things, like how the chute fits into your plans, and why you think he's afraid of rope. And I don't understand how getting his eye will change how he feels about rope. I'm guessing on the highline he doesn't care which side of his face the rope is on. He needs to feel comfortable with you on both sides of him, no matter what you might be doing. From what I can tell he is comfortable with you in specific situations and circumstances and has learned how to preserve that comfort by keeping you working within his comfort zone.
but I am going to work on it as if it was the problem and we will see what happens. I'll bet the fear of ropes goes away.I still think, from what you've said, that he's not afraid of ropes. Rather, he's probably justifiably afraid of what humans may do to him, with ropes or anything else that might be waved around him or thrown at him. It may seem like a small distinction but it's not - it's everything. So I'm wondering how you're going to work on it without making him more uncomfortable?
My new camera is waiting for me... I will post some video and you will have a much clearer idea of what he is like.That could be a help....
Excess
06-18-2007, 08:25 AM
Okay I have very limited experience with training and horses, especially compared to most folks on here. However one thing I have worked with is an abused mustang named Tango. She was a big, old white mare who was never given a good deal. Of all the horses I've worked with, she taught me the most about FEEL. I did use treats with her though and it made a world of difference.
When I first was asked to work with her it took me two hours to catch her. I used apples. And patience. Ultimately I was able to catch her with no problems. The apples helped immensely and eventually I was able to not use apples at all. To this day I will not see her for months at a time and she still lets me come up to her and touch her all over.
However when it came to getting her to accept me and to ride it took a lot of slow movements, NO CONFINEMENTS (either a stall and even a small pen or hard hands or any sort of confinement would send her into a tizzy), and lots of FEEL and ASKING to get her to do much of anything.
Confining a mustang - in any way - figurativily and physically - is one of the worst things you can do with them.
You know, I have thought about this, thought about what Franca said, thought about what JRW said, tried to find a middle ground, or higher ground, and basically, it comes down to horses being a willing partner...and some are more willing than others...not to say I am always successful by anymeans...all of us struggle with something...and sometimes more than one thing...but the difference between a horse being with you willingly, and a horse "accepting" what you "do to them" is huge. Cinch talked about it a while back on the chat, about a horse yielding. That physical offering of their mental capacity, as well as their belief that you are a leader, the trust, the honor that the role commands, is totally different. That is where I am heading.
Wally thought Cisco might be partially blind in one eye ... the vet looked and there is a little irregularity, but then said everything was okay.
Cisco does everything okay (maybe better than the average domestic horse), but I want him to be 100% before I committ bones to his back. He will look at you with both eyes.... He never fights. When he panics he takes about 2 jumps and then looks back to see if things are okay. He doesn't do that all the time, but its there. When I say he does everything better than a domestic horse, I would like to clarify that.... we gave the horses an assessment test for how trained they were for 100 tasks. Cisco scored much higher on everything that required him to be focused. There were lots of it that I felt it was unsafe to try, but the parts I felt okay about, he did great on.
But when I look at the whole picture, I get back to Wallys worry about partial blindness...
1. He likes to be highlined or tied where he can control which eye he sees you out of.
2. He hates that turning around the butt thing.
3. He is really hinky about his right hind foot and it just doesn't take much to upset his applecart about it even though he will lift it up and put it in your hand.
4. He didn't want to have me reach over his back from the right side (now he is okay with this)
I tried to notice how stuck he is on this today when I was out mucking things. I put him in a big stall while I was cleaning it and noticed which side he kept to me as I moved around. He was pretty keen to keep me on the left side. After stall cleaning I took him out to my little chute and put a bucket of grain down for him to eat (something we normally do under the highline). I let the mules out of the corral and they were there trying to come up and eat the grain, but I just took my lunging whip and waved them away. This mean that I had a logical reason to be popping that whip around this side of the chute and then over on that side... Cisco understood exactly what I was doing. He never got concerned even though I was jumping from the left to the right and swinging the popper around. I was protecting him and he knew it.
Well, I guess you have raised a good question... could I lead him into the trailer without lead rope? Well, I don't think I could lead him into it WITH a lead rope without a little advance training, but you've given me a goal. My trailer is being repaired and the floor is not bolted down right now. But how about this, if I get my mustang in the living room without a lead rope (on a photo), will you all just say, "hey, we don't understand it, but she must be doing something to make that mustang trust her" Getting him to come up to be shop-vac'ed wasn't enough? Okay, I think he will come in the house. We'll watch one of those horse training videos together. I think Cisco would like Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling the best.
I had a dream about this the other night. I dreamed that Alexandra Kurland was giving a clinic at my place. Some jets flew over in formation and we knew we were under surveillence so we all split up. I went out to hide behind a rock formation but the police (cyborgs) drove up and took me in to custody. Alexandra had been caught too (unacceptable methods of horsetraining was the crime) and it was going to be life in prison or torture but the robots/police weren't paying attention and we slipped out the door into a crowd. We escaped by getting in the back of an internet cafe.
Well, I hope that if I am a criminal, I can at least have a little fun.
I used to have a young horse that I rode with a kite string in her mouth. I would ride her 20 miles into town, through traffic, and then tie her up to a parking meter with a piece of string in front of the bar. She and I would camp out lots of nights and she would sleep standing over me like I was her foal. I raised her and trained her myself. Trust is everything.
I sent JD off for some riding this last winter. He was going pretty good, but I didn't have time to ride him and work with all the others. I paid to have him ridden 30 days by someone who is a good rider/cowboy and is a pro horsetrainer. JD would have been okay if Billy had just ridden him but instead Billy thought he should start over and do all this NaturalHorsemanship stuff with him. JD doesn't do well under pressure so his behavior collapsed. I didn't even let him finish out the time and called it off when after 20 days my horse had learned to buck and jump barbwire fences in a fight with his rider. But what I did to get MY MUSTANGS mind back was I lead him home... 16 miles through the slush and mud, walking all day and into the winter night until we got back to familiar ground and his home corral. When we got home there was no question in the horses mind who he could depend on. He knows the lead mare.
The cyborgs can attack. I don't care. I know how to escape.
Yrs,
JRW
ps. The thing is, with my critters, they will NOT be good for anyone else. It's not trust of all humans, its this human.
reata
06-18-2007, 06:28 PM
Reata says............. "hey, we don't understand it, but she must be doing something to make that mustang trust her"
OK I will say it now...Just so I won't feel guilty when ya horse runs Ya over while ya trying to get him in the house. Get real JRW Get a lap dog!!
OMG...Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling !!!! Just the FLUFF I was talking about... GEEEESE!!!
Have a nice day..
love Reata
PS wouldn't CH have fun with this sheila......walks off shacking head in bewilderment !!!
reata
06-18-2007, 07:47 PM
Ok I feel really bad about what I wrote above.. I don't have any business talking like that.. I got mad and frustrated.
JRW I'm sorry .. Its not that your not trying .. You are trying.. and I respect that.. You have your journey and what ever road it takes you down .. that's up to you.. its none of my business at all.. Your heart is in the right place and your just doing what you think is right .. All of us here have offered you some insight in to the way we do things but you have your ways and if they work for you and the horse, well bloody hell, that's wonderful!!! .. Keep searching and trying and analyzing what is happening and hopefully one day "POOF" it will all fall into place.. :)
Gee, Reata, it would be a shame if it went "POOF" and all fell into place. Then I wouldn't be learning anything from my equines. I kind of like having a couple of "project" animals and trying all kinds of stuff out on them. You don't know what does or doesn't work until you give it an honest try. I'd have to go out and find some more enigmatic critters. Please no poofy animals.
Get yourself a donkey to train and you will find out a lot of stuff your horse never told you!
You wouldn't feel guilty if my horse does anything.... believe me, I won't feel guilty if your horse does anything. How could I and why would I???? That kind of talk isn't real at all. There is no reason in the world for you to be mad unless you feel threatened. If you don't like what I have to say, why can't you just ignore me? What is the point of confronting me and calling me a Sheila? There are rules against insulting people on the forum, even if its in a foreign language like Australian. If you write something you are really sorry to have written, the edit screen allows you to delete your post.
Well I survived another training day where some dust was raised, some barrels were jumped, some saddles were sweated on, and some horse cookies were eaten. It was just a moment in time. If you and I are lucky enough to get to spend our lives in partnership with our equines, then we are both specially blessed, but then, you knew that.
JRW
I got home yesterday and found that the two Buck Dvd's I rented had arrived. Of course I sat down and watched them almost immediately!!!
Now I am a little bit peeved with you Buck-o-philes. Why didn't you tell me that he shows SEVERAL exercises for changing eye work????
I am about to turn into a Buck-o-phile myself, to be honest. EVERYTHING he did on those videos is directly explainable in terms of the general principles of Behavior Modification. It is all totally good in my book. No mumbo-jumbo horsewhispering magic. Whadda-guy!
I am going to put Ol' Cisco on the Buck plan since it is not too different from what we were doing anyway.
Yrs,
JRW
Mares Tales
08-20-2007, 12:42 PM
You support and direct the energy/focus to the desirable positive outcome. (set it up and let them find it)(make the right thing easy. R.H.) No need to beat anyone or anything over the head...then your idea becomes their idea and they discover it for themselves and it means so much more and it stays with them.
Now ya gotta rent Bucks Three Masters video. It is EXCELLENT beyond discription! Just fast forward past the other two clinicians! Buck is the REAL DEAL! It is a no nonsense treasure. If I was confined to a bunker for 20 years the two horsee things I would take with me is True Unity and The Three Masters video. I have hundreds of dressage books, (some by the old masters) and videos of all kinds but those two are all ya really need.
Oh oh, I forgot about the electricity I`d need to see the video :-( Guess I`d have to take my notes instead.)
So, What you are saying is that despite your frequent protests, outbursts, accusations, noxious rantings, You actually checked in or tuned in to the great advice, and admonitions, on this forum, with all the eclecticity, and found that there was really something to what we have been saying...
I don't expect for it to take hold over night, but I am glad to see that you have decided that maybe there is really something to this..
well, I am sure glad to hear that..next thing ya know, you will be stuffing the clickers and cookies, the chutes and the dummies...I will wait for that glorious day...until then, good on you JRW. Keep reading, and keep searching..the reason we did not say anything, Dorothy, is "because it was in your own backyard, all the time"...and you have to search for it.
Don't put that Cisco on the Buck plan. Put him on the JRW plan, tweaking it just a bit, and following some of the principles, and exercises..you and Cisco will be so glad you did.
reata
08-20-2007, 06:33 PM
Thuddd!!!!
Red,
Those were your rantings, accusations, and outbursts. You still have no way to guess what my horses are like. You start telling me that they are bad, and you and I will still go toe-to-toe. Never insult my horses. I will not insult yours, you have my word. You and I can get along if you don't start running me down. Be good, Patti. You might want to not use inflammatory words like noxious. It is not conducive to the conversation.
I am not about to put any horse training tool too far out of reach. You never know what you will need to solve the next set of problems.
Someone stopped by today and wanted to buy my mustangs!!!! Wow!!! Of course, I wouldn't sell them to just anyone so I turned it down. I would like to sell my Paisley horse. She needs a more civilized home as she is allergic to mosquito bites. Poor thing!!! Covered in welts.
What I mean about putting Cisco on the Buck-plan is just to check him out and make sure he can do all of the exercises. Most of the ground work ones we have done, but the one where Buck turns their hindquarters with his fingers/hand in the horses neck, then sends them back against the fence is a new challenge for us -- it's the changing eye exercise. I started to get Cisco ready for it today by just getting him turning his hindquarters as demonstrated, but when it came time to send him off, I got a little nervous about that hind end swinging past me at the moment of maximum stress (change of eye) to the mustang mind. I have only walked closely behind him one time and it suprised both of us (he didn't jump, he just looked at me like "I didn't know you could do that".) So, I decided we would keep working on other things to get to where it feels more safe.
My horses are really responsive and definitely "follow a feel". The ones with PTSD just have low thresholds for panic. With an abused animal, it's not like working with a horse with a pure mind. Cisco has a fear of rope, no doubt. You can pen him up by stretching one out on the ground... he will not cross it. You get along with him perfectly if you just take the rope and toss it out of the corral. The farrier came today and Cisco was the best animal of the bunch. He is learning to deal with ropes, but they are big mojo for him.
By the way, I haven't got him all the way into the house, just his head inside the door.
Yrs,
JRW
You need to get over yourself, Patricia. Ya can't even see a complement when it is handed to you.
reata
08-20-2007, 10:47 PM
JRW said.. " You never know what you will need to solve the next set of problems."
A old horseman said to me one day that he never has to solve many problems with horses.. He heads them off before they ever get started.. that way your not forever fixing stuff.
Don't wait for the problems to start.. be aware.. and you might just not need all those "TOOLS"...:eek:
Reata,
Let's take Cracker Joe as an example. He originally came from a home where he had learned to buck his owner off (she was a teenager with little horse experience). When he went to a new owner, did he have a problem? Billy rode the buck out of him sort of before I got him, but he will still try it.
I suppose you could just say this is no problem. The hinny can do no wrong. There are no problem hinnies. Just start over and do everything right. Hmmmmm..... That is theoretically possible, but is it pragmatic? Is there really no such thing as a rehab project? I think you don't get to work with a pure mind very long. You have habits of attitude that have to be overcome and you have responses that have to be unlearned or replaced by better behaviors. The thing is that you don't even know whats in the repertoire of a previously owned animal until you find out from experience which may or may not involve impact with the earth. I recognize that starting over and doing it right is possible.... that's what I am doing with Cisco. I don't care that he was actually ridden several times by someone he put in the hospital twice, to my mind he isn't broke to ride at all. He had to start with me by learning to calm down on cue because he had the habit of escalating panic to escape the humans or at least get them to leave him alone.
Paisley, on the other hand, had a pure mind when I got her. You cannot do anything to fluff her up, she just takes everything in stride because she never had a reason to be fearful and she is a warmblood so is not genetically predisposed to fear anyway. She is the horse who can get by with a bare bones training toolbox.
The interesting thing is that for some reason that eludes me totally, there is a almost-moral obligation on this forum not to do anything differently, not to have any other methods, and not to have any other goals. Well, if you never need anything else, then you are blessed with a wonderful skill. Magnificent things were built with only a saw, a hammer, and a chisle, but some of us like to have a shop full of powertools anyway.
Since you are helping people with difficult horses, if you are effective with what you have, then you are doing great. I salute you for it. Get on a jet and come show me how its done, but reiterating NaturalHorsemanship aphorisms is not helpful to me.
Now here is some useful advice that Buck had on his DVD:
"If you had a mustang, something that maybe had some age on it, that would kick your head off, well you couldn't get in this position right now. With a mustang, what you would do, and I'll show you a bit of that later on, you'd have to have a rope around his neck. You'd have to throw the rope to the far side of the hindquarters and change eyes by pulling his hindquarters off the fence toward the middle of the pen, driving him the other direction. Throwing the rope across again, pulling his hindquarters. That's how you'd get him started."
That's about as specific as you can get. Helpful? You bet.
Yrs,
JRW
reata
08-21-2007, 06:46 PM
JRW.. Ya just don't get it do you..
Please read my lips..The horse (or Hinny) is OK .. he is the way he is.. If he was born with a bad attitude, that's fine.. if he developed a bad attitude, that's fine too.. He had a reason.. If he developed a bad attitude that was the humans fault..not the horses.. So do we blame the horse for his bad attitude???
That is where your missing the point.. Take the blame completely away from the horse and stop MAKING him change.. Fix it up so the bad attitude never comes out.. Impossible you say.. Well, I agree it is damn near impossible .. That is where our lack of knowledge comes into it.. We have to work on US to help the horse to not show this bad attitude.. he doesnt want to be bad.. its what he thinks we expect from him .. (A human taught him that too..)
So when this type of horsemanship teaches that.. "The horse is never wrong"..and.. "Your working on yourself not the horse". That is where your thinking has to come from .. Or you will never get this stuff..
I will Quote Ray and Tom again .. " You have to give something you never gave to get something you never had.." TD
"LET your idea become the horses idea" RH ( Ray says LET not Make)
And JRW you can use any tool in your tool box, even your cookies and your Dummy rider as long as your working WITH the horse not ON the horse .. But I can tell you the more you get this stuff working for your and the more you understand what Buck and Ray and Tom are about the less you will need those tools..
Your searching and that is wonderful .. But you have some BIG braces that need to come down before you will start to get this stuff..
Work on the BRACES IN YOU!!! :eek:
Reata,
The braces are in you too. We all have them.
You do the thing with me that you say to never do with a horse. Don't back me in a corner and expect me to have a nice attitude. Don't tell me what to do, it would be much better to just let your idea become my idea without trying to shove something down my throat. Or maybe my idea could become your idea??? Anything is possible.
But, hey, you know, Reata, you and I are kind of bonded. It's a love/hate relationship, but I think you are more bark than bite, so dudette, no worries. I will send Judy to live with you if you like, a trip downunder might get her all inflated!
While I was looking at bits on eventing horses I ran across something that brought you to mind. It's an Australian website selling a product that one of my neighbors developed: www.peeweebit.com I never heard of it or the guy that invented it, but that sure enough is my neighborhood. You probably know of the guys selling the bit.
Yrs,
JRW
FrancaV
08-21-2007, 11:37 PM
I would like to sell my Paisley horse. She needs a more civilized home as she is allergic to mosquito bites. Poor thing!!! Covered in welts.I pulled this tidbit out because it's a topic near and dear to my heart at the moment ... my poor baby came out in huge welts all over her sides and belly in CO. At first I thought it was allergy to fly or mosquito bites, but it turned out that her skin couldn't tolerate the fly spray my friend uses. The welts were so huge she looked like she was made up of a bunch of rabbit pelts sewn together. :eek: Do you use any fly spray on Paisley, JRW? Just thought I'd throw that idea out there, just in case. We hosed Seven off and put a fly sheet on her and the welts subsided. The bites hardly swell at all.
I went and bought the kind of fly spray she's used to. All was well for about a week of spraying mostly just her legs and then she became sensitized to her regular fly spray as well. Can't spray it anywhere but on her legs or she gets giant welts. Aaaaaaack! I think she may have some sort of low-level immune system thing going on so we're looking into that. But I don't think I'll ever be able to use that same fly spray again. Sigh. So she wears her sheet as much as possible and when she's saddled up she gets spray on her legs but that's all we can do for her till we figure out why she's so reactive. I feel bad, but don't really know what else to do about the flies at the moment.
Franca,
Thanks for the tidbit!!! I don't think it is allergy to the spray. The welts are about the size of a grape and they are also on her face where I don't spray. It was under control until I had to leave someone else in charge of the flyspray bottle last week. My caretaker couldn't figure out how to spray anyone but the donkeys! But I ordered Paisley a fly sheet yesterday one with an attachable neck cover. We might have 30 more days of skeeters. When the sheet shows up, no more spray for her, just incase.
I think it makes her grumpy and unfocused. I don't want to put a saddle blanket or pad on her welts, so yesterday we just went for a nice walk after I gave her a cool water washdown. Poor girl!
If I don't sell her, I will try spraying her in the winter when the mosquitos are not around just to be sure. The chance of me selling an animal is hard to imagine. She would make a really good Cowboy Shooting horse. She has kind of an ol'time slab sided look (would be stunning in a vintage saddle with a teal colored Navajo blanket) and she is unflappable. But she is also the only critter around here with a pure mind.
Yrs,
JRW
FrancaV
08-23-2007, 01:04 AM
Oh, well, if the welts are only grape sized you are probably right and they are from the bites. Hope the fly sheet helps! My fly sheet has a detachable neck cover also.
I can't quite believe my horse is wearing clothes ... I've always had a blanket for winter just in case, but she has only worn one a few times as she's never needed anything but her own fuzzy winter coat. (The blanket keeps my saddle warm and dry. ;)) Now she's wearing a fly sheet every day. It's just weird to me ... having a horse all covered up out in the pasture ... but I guess I'll have to get used to it!