What DVD's Next???

[GNC]

Hello!

This is my first post here. :-)

I am working with my yearling Reining/Cutting/Working Cow Horse prospect. He is not my first horse, but is my first foal, and my first attempt at training a horse from the ground up. It's exciting and overwhelming all at the same time, LOL.

I began with the Chris Cox DVD's: Foal Handling and Leading Edge in Ground Control. The first was well below my horse's and my current level (he's great with being caught, haltered, led, and having his feet handled) but the second DVD taught me a couple of useful things that I look forward to experimenting with and perfecting.

New to me were the CORRECT way to direct and drive, and using these basic skills to handle obstacles. Thumbs up.

HOWEVER, my little colt has a couple of issues that seem to have cropped up in the last week or so, and these concepts I've learned from watching the Chris Cox DVD's don't really translate in a way I can easily see. I'd really like some guidance on what DVD's to go with next, that might help me handle the following:

ISSUES:

1. Pawing at the ground, and general impatience when tied. Our BIGGEST issue! I want a solid tie-horse, and ideally would love a program that includes the teaching of a reliable ground tie.

2. Nipping. He hasn't made any contact yet, and really isn't a biter/nipper at all, but he's made some half-hearted gestures. Being a colt, I want to get this one under control effectively right away.

3. Rearing up and striking with the front feet as his default behaviour when he's in even a slightly stressful situation. I suspect a lot of this has to do with our bond, which needs strengthening of course as I've only had him for a short time. Also, I think there are ways I can apply direct and drive principles the next time such a situation arises. However, if he retains this rearing/striking as his default behaviour instead of focusing and working through an exercise, it's going to become a problem when he is an adult. This issue is less about rearing and striking than about the behaviour he defaults to rather than relaxing and THINKING.

Anyway, I know this is all really heavy for a first post, LOL. I really appreciate any responses. If it helps guide responses in the right direction, my plans for this horse BEYOND GROUND WORK are going to be based on Buck Brannaman's training, along with Martin Black's colt starting and bridle horse principles. Basically a real Californio/Vaquero approach. But it'll be a while before I need any starting under saddle resources. :-)

Someone recommended Jonathan Field's Natural Foundation Groundwork 5-Disc Series as my next purchase... Any thoughts on that?

I should probably add that a round pen isn't an option at the moment. It'll be a couple of months, and I really don't want to wait for the one we're building to be done before I can even start anything with my colt. The round pen will be great when it's ready, but in the meantime I need something that's workable without it. It's one of the things about the Chris Cox DVD's that appealed to me - nothing but a rope halter and long lead rope needed.

Thanks!

Jenn

[clk]

One issue with asking questions on a forum like this is just anyone can answer.

So speaking as a just anyone amateur, my first reaction is you might be putting a little more on this little guy's plate than he is ready for.

How old is this horse? Ground tieing, or much tieing of any kind or more than a few minutes of going in a circle, be it on a halter and line, or in a round pen is a lot for a foal.

If this is a coming two year old, I will take my foot out of my mouth. But if this is a baby, then what he needs most of all is to spend time in the company of other horses, playing growing and learning how to be a horse. Let the other horses teach him when nipping and striking are appropriate or not. They are so much better at that job.

Take this time for him to learn what a fair, kind clear and consistent rock you are. From a distance.

I have not, nor will I be publishing any dvd's. This advice is free, and probably worth what you paid for it.

[GNC]

Haha, well he IS only a baby. 9 months. However, I'm pretty certain I am not pushing him. Handling is fairly limited - we're not tearing it up in a round pen or gallivanting through the woods for a weekend straight. :-)

There are just certain things he has to deal with right now - such as being handled while being groomed, and sometimes leading where he's uncomfortable. Like a slight downhill, which he'd rather run cattywampus down and I make him go down in a controlled fashion.

I appreciate your response, and I can never be reminded too often to take things at a reasonable pace. But the thing is, unless he's left in a field to his own devices for the next year (not going to benefit either of us) he HAS to be handled. And in this handling, there are the issues I've mentioned popping up. So they need to be dealt with, or they're going to get worse. He needs to be groomed. He needs to be hauled places sometimes. He needs to walk with me nicely if I choose to expose him to the trails for half an hour or so.

I mean, there are folks who have their babies ready for halter shows when they are barely my colt's age. I imagine they're going through more handling in a day (training, grooming) than mine does. So when I want him to stand for a bit while being groomed without pawing to China, and don't want him to rear up and strike out at me as his default reaction when he gets a little confused, I honestly don't feel bad or guilty.

I also don't feel ashamed asking for DVD recommendations. We are all here to learn, right? I am in a position where access to clinics is rather limited, and I can't exactly go work for a ranch. Following along with a good DVD program, supplemented by clinics (as I can get to them) is the next best thing.

He is, of course, with other horses 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time I need him to learn how to interact with me - and vice versa. :-)

[clk]

Well heck Jenn. Words like guilty and ashamed have absolutely no place in this conversation. If I brought them out in any way shape or form I apologize. That was not my intent.

I will be interested to hear what some more knowledgeable folks have to say, especially Mr. Two Cents who starts twenty or so babies every year.

You are absolutely right, it's a great idea to be able to load him if needed and he does need his feet done, especially if you are like most of us and don't have big pastures.

But 9 month old foal? I would be inclined to just turn him out for a year with some old broodmares or a school master gelding. I think a lot of the silliness you have to deal with now and then won't get worse, it will just go away.

If you take an 8 year old boy to have dinner at the White House and someone farts, he's going to bust out laughing, and it doesn't matter if he sitting next to the President. He probably won't when he is 19 years old.

I'm learning too, but I expect to know all the answers someday. (Assuming I live to be 150).

Wish some folks would quit sitting on their hands and pipe up!

[palehorse]

GNC; DVD's can help give you ideas, but they are no substitute for actual clinic experience or your hands on work. your results tell you more than anything. some of the behavior you describe #'s 1-2-3 in your opening post may be "typical" foal behavior ...or....you may be instrumental in causing the surfacing of the behavior by too much too soon pressure on the foal. he is just responding in the only way he knows how. maybe your agenda and timeline are crowding what he is able to figure out at this time. remember that there is no time-line and he needs to be allowed to figure things out with your patient handling. im sure you will have success and he will be a horse to be proud of as time goes by. he is just a baby that is exploring the world and how humans operate, too.

[CarolH]

With my colt we had an older gelding and I used that gelding right along with my colt. It gave this little guy the support he needed. And that gelding would keep him in check all of the time. As time went on I did things separate from the gelding. My colt acted the same way at times but with time and patience he was great.
Just had a similar conversation with a friend about how her horse was responding to her. So I watched her do some ground work and there were things she did not realize she was doing that was creating some of the issues she was having. Sometimes it is good to have someone watching what you are doing and thinking things through with you.

[GNC]

Hi everyone,

First off, I want to apologize to you clk... I didn't mean anything by my earlier response. My husband and I are driving cross-country to visit my folks, and I guess the long hours on the road (and the impending ordeal of a family visit) has my nerves shortened. Hope you can forgive me. :-)

I guess I just read your response with a bit of frustration, since it seems no matter WHAT a gal does, it's gonna be wrong. Handle the foal frequently? You're pushing him. Don't handle him? You're not forming good habits while he is young. LOL

My colt is turned out 100% of the time, but that's not to say I won't handle him. It's just not realistic... He needs his feet handled. He needs to learn to tie now (not when he's fully grown and able to do serious damage if he decides he doesn't want to be tied). He needs to not be sensitive about his sheath, because the first time he is handled down there can't be when a jet of water is being shot up inside him and he's big and strong enough to hurt when he kicks. You know what I mean?

You said: "If you take an 8 year old boy to have dinner at the White House and someone farts, he's going to bust out laughing, and it doesn't matter if he sitting next to the President. He probably won't when he is 19 years old."

But WHY doesn't he, when he's 19 years old? Because somewhere in those 11 years he learns that it's inappropriate. And I think we've all seen the result of kids that ARE left to their own devices to grow up... There are plenty of grown men and women who are embarrassingly behaved. So I do believe there's an element of education that comes into play, even though arguably some of it has to do with genetic predisposition as well.

My colt is really good. He has a super nature. A friend of mine with whom I keep him has 2 foals now, and they aren't her first. She marvels at how good this baby is. I am sure his behaviour is normal. But isn't it normal to want to get a handle on them properly, too? I bet you that most people with a foal like this wouldn't even be on a forum asking for advice, because they wouldn't think they have a problem. I just want to be proactive. I don't want to be on here in a year asking for behavioural help for a dangerous horse when it all could have been prevented by knowledgeable handling from this point on.

I don't want to push this colt... But I want to make sure that the handling I HAVE TO DO is done properly. I hope that makes sense?

Also, I'm not training a horse by DVD... But DVD's are the best means I have right now of learning some theories, figuring out who I like, and determining who is going to be worth the thousands of dollars and hundreds (thousands?!) of miles of driving to see in person. Ideally I'd like to have seen enough DVD's (and put enough into practice) to have an idea of who/how I want to start my colt in a clinic. I can't make that decision any other way.

Thanks so much for your time, everyone.

Jenn

[marlana80]

GNC,

I think what some people are trying to say is that your foal now knows how to be led, handled, etc... that's great. Now turn him out and just let him be a horse. He won't forget what he's learned in a year or two, just need a quick refresher before it's time for the farrier or anything else.

Plenty of horses are left out in the horse herds and brought in as long 2 yr olds to be trained. They might be stronger in the body, but so are their minds.

Those weanling halter horses you see usually have fried brains, BTW. Or are so desensitized they seem dull when you actually get on their back, and you want a horse to be sensitive to a lot of things (like your hands, voice, seat & legs).

[clk]

Hi Jenn,

Hope your trip is going well. I agree with what Marlana said...yes it's important what you have done, but too much of a good thing is possible here.

Also, it's clear you care a great deal and have put a lot of thought and effort into this. Bottom line is that just based on that, your foal will be just fine, no matter what route you end up taking. The other thing that every single good trainer has told me is that it's not if you will make mistakes, you WILL make mistakes. And that's ok. Part of the process.

In the end, it's just you and him, and that relationship and his opinion of you is the only one that really counts. Not mine, not anyone else's, even if you paid thousands of dollars for their opinion.

While we are jawing on the subject, I really think there is a line here of too much or too little. I have seen some foals handled too much, and they are literally nightmares. I haven't seen that with foals raised with primarily horse contact BUT.....

As with that 8 year old boy, you are absolutely correct, it is the quality of that contact, be it human or horse. An 8 year old latch key kid, who doesn't have many friends, and doesn't go out to dinner with his buddies, doesn't get any supervision will still be inappropriate at 19.

So, if your baby is turned out with one spacey gelding who cribs and is a goofball on his best day, or a juvinille delinquent who thinks chasing humans is fun yep, you better work with him consistently, because his education is your responsibility.

If he is turned out with calm sane mares and gelding that know proper behavior, well then you are golden.

Good luck.

[GNC]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the responses! I do take it to heart. I'll try and leave him be as much as possible for the next year and a half or so. :-)

[kindredspirit]

While your colt is maturing, go see Harry Whitney, or Brent Graef, Joe Wolters, Lee Smith or Josh Nichols or Buck Brannaman. Watch DVD's of Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt.

Best wishes,
Kathy

[Two Cents]

Hi!

I got poked, or prodded, or something. OK, more like WHACKED over the head.

So I took a look.

Lots of things from your first note jumped right out. None of them are a big deal, and can be easily fixed. The rearing/pawing thing. The tieing thing. And so on.

All of this can also easily become a HUGE problem, for you, for him, for your life together.

The important thing is you seem to have figured this out, and you're looking for help. Your colt has also figured this out, and is looking for help.

What do you suppose that rearing/pawing thing is about?????? If he had another option available to him at the time, I think he would take it. Another human's perspective on this is not important, or useful, or relevant.

The colt's thoughts and feelings on this are what matters.

In a matter of minutes, you can get to where you can move that colt's feet, all four of them, all four directions. Forward, back, left, right. Easy, smooth, fluid, in response to an imperceptible (to humans) feel down a lariat on his neck, a lead rope on a halter, or just the thin air from thirty feet away.

You are NOT going to get anything good out of a DVD. Not that there aren't a lot of really great horsemen out there doing their best to help. And, to be fair, a LOT of really shitty snake oil salesmen out there trying to make a buck, no matter the consequences.

This stuff is just too simple, and too complicated at the same time. It can be very easy, and the hardest thing you can conceive of at the the very same time.

So, if you'd like, we'll just start at the beginning. Your colt would like that. Because a whole lot of stuff that is critically important has already been missed. He knows it, and you do too.

I had this stuff driven home, and HARD, a couple of weeks ago. A lot of people I considered to be master horsemen turned out to be mere mortals. Or worse. Much worse. And it turns out that mere mortals can also be wonderfully talented and capable horsemen.

The horses, it seems, always knew just who was who. I'd better start catching up.

Have fun with your horse. (And what is his name, by the way? Seems kind of impersonal to keep talking about him in the third person, when after all, he is the reason for this whole conversation.) There is nothing going on that can't be easily managed, no big deal. Good for you for knowing that there is something better out there.

[reata]

I had this stuff driven home, and HARD, a couple of weeks ago. A lot of people I considered to be master horsemen turned out to be mere mortals. Or worse. Much worse. And it turns out that mere mortals can also be wonderfully talented and capable horsemen.

The horses, it seems, always knew just who was who. I'd better start catching up.



LOL I think we were at the same place!!! Interesting wasn't it??

[CarolH]

Reata and Two Cents, I believe I was right there with you. I am not an expert by no means but have been lucky to ride with some unknown horseman (mere mortals).

[GNC]

Hi everyone.

I wanted to post an update to this thread. Lots has happened since my first post. We moved from B.C. to Alberta, and while we're in the land of cowboys and Cow Horse (well, I guess the CANADIAN version, haha) it seems most capable people here are so futurity-minded that they can't see past starting an 18-month-old colt and having him running full patterns or cutting cattle in competition by the time he is PROPERLY 2 years old. I dunno. It's just not right to me. Ed Connell wouldn't approve.

If it's done one thing, it's solidified in my mind that I NEED to train this horse myself. I am inexperienced at training, but I'm a good rider (even if I am told I don't give myself enough credit, or have enough confidence in my skill at times) and I am not wrong. I honestly feel like I am more right about horses and training than anyone I've met here - and they all live at the top of their respective game. How can I know this? Because in their quest for the top, they've forgotten the well being of the HORSE. I have no doubt that these men and women are more skilled than I am, but they've chosen to follow a path that's more about earnings and recognition than it is about good horse training. I'm not going to follow these people just because they've been doing it longer than I have. <-- This wasn't a rant directed at anyone here, it's just my thoughts as I reflect on what I have seen and heard since I have been in Alberta. :-)

On a positive note: My horse, Smoke, is doing really well! He's a year old now, and he's enjoying acres of prairie grass (at least while we have it for another few months) and being touched very little. I still bring him into the barn once or twice a week, fly spray him (the mosquitos drive the horses MAD here!) and give him a good grooming. I handle his feet at least as much. I've done well keeping him from becoming mouthy as well, which I know is crucial with a colt.

He's still impatient with being tied.

Two Cents, you said "So, if you'd like, we'll just start at the beginning. Your colt would like that. Because a whole lot of stuff that is critically important has already been missed. He knows it, and you do too."

I'd really like that. :-)

Thanks to everyone.

Jenn

P.S. If there's anyone up here that I am able to have assist me with starting my colt in line with true vaquero philosophy, I would love to meet them. Please let me know.

[Two Cents]

Hi!

Sounds like you and Smoke are doing just fine.

Don't worry about being impatient about being tied. If they are not yet truly halter broke, it is too early to expect any horse of any age to be mentally and emotionally quiet and OK with standing tied. Or hauled while tied. Or saddled while tied. Or all sorts of things.....

When they know how to move their feet, all four feet, in all four directions, in response to a feel from you, whether it is through your hands or halter or lead or posture, and do it in a soft, smooth, fluid manner, they are ready to go on. This might take a few really skilled horsemen a few minutes to accomplish. If it takes you an hour or a day or week or month or year, that is fine too. There isn't much more to worry about for another year or two with a yearling.

Meanwhile, keep up the good work. Smoke is trying pretty hard to stay with you. Because he knows he needs to. You're trying pretty hard for him, and he knows it. That is a good thing, and will work for both of you if you let it.

Let's just take it one step at a time from here.

[dunslidin]

I broke and trained my baby 10 years ago and made tons of mistakes. The good news is that he is an awesome 11 year old now and we are a team. Just like people, the good ones let you make mistakes and still stay your friend and partner. I know my husband has put up with tons of mistakes and still drives home every night. I also probably did too much with my youngster and even though he was out with other horses my facilities just doesn't work for them to be turned out and not messed with. He played colt games when things became boring and he nipped a little and figured out that wasn't pleasant for either of us. By the time I rode him those were gone and we moved on to other issues but now as a mature gelding he is a dream. He still will turn his butt to me with a sad face to say he doesn't really want to go riding but willingly goes once the halter is on. He isn't stupid, would you want to leave your friends, fan and food to go cart an old fat woman around. He is soft, kind and just plain fun whether we are trail riding or running a reining pattern. I'm not a very good rider or horseperson but I love my ponies and the good ones figure it out and just learn to work with you, my trainer says we are all here to learn by our mistakes and that it is very seldom that a mistake isn't fixable down the road. Quit worrying and have fun with Smoke, I hope in a couple of years you tell me what a great guy he has become.

[aktill]

Hi Jenn,

Might have missed it, but where in AB are you? There's lots of good folks in this province with a Californio mindset, or who come around often enough.

Josh Nichol is all over the province, and based out of a spot just north of Edmonton (www.joshnichol.com).

The folks at Winning Strides (www.winningstrides.com) in Nanton just hosted Richard Caldwell, and I had the good fortune to be on an Icelandic horse amongst a field of QH's :) Don't know if they work youngstock themselves, but they'd know who would. Came home from the clinic with 26 single-space pages of notes, and having had lots of saddle time.

Joe Wolter is coming to Nanton...not sure if he's doing a colt clinic.

Buck Brannaman normally comes to High River, but didn't this year. Hopefully he'll be back next year.

Hope that gets you started. If you see an Icelandic with a slick fork saddle and hackamore rig, feel free to say hi...can't see there being too many of us here!

Cheers,
Adam