Picking us up from the fence!!!

[reata]

I was reading JRW's thread on the Riding Dummy and looked at the short video of the horse picking the girl up from the fence..
To be blunt (The more you know me, you will find I can be blunt.. Its a "quality" some like and some don't but its just the way I am.:eek:) I wouldn't say this horse is picking the rider up at all.
To me a change takes place in the horse when he picks us up from the fence. He's saying Yep, I want you to ride me, and I will help you out the best I can. I think its an honor when one of my horses pick me up from the fence. I always feel so humble and so privileged that my horse wants me to ride him ..I try to show him the respect he deserves..
Some (not all of them :-)) the moment I climb up on my gate will come, even from the other side of the RP, sidle right up beside me, and stand contently and patiently while I get on. They place the saddle or their backs right under my nose. (Or my butt!! :-)) This to me is picking me up from the fence..
They want me to get on!!! How lucky am I???
The horse in the video, I'm afraid, is not helping the rider..he even shifts his weight away as she goes to get on..
Thanks for the video JRW and I'm sure if you look at it again you will see what I mean!!

[Weebonilass]

Reata,

I don't have time to re-look at the clip at the moment to offer an opinion, but I have to agree with what you say. My gelding has always offered this to me. I had a clinician ask me how long it took me to train him to do it and I just smiled and said nothing. It's his gift to me. I still remember crying the first time he did it. Of course, I hadn't ridden him in a year and a half. I was waiting for his permission due to a lot of bad baggage he was carrying. There was no doubt in my mind what he was offering.

To this day, if he doesn't offer, I don't get on because chances are I'll be coming right back off :)

[JRW]

Well, that isn't a "girl"... that's me and I am too old for that designation.

This was a huge improvement for this horse over his old ways. It is interesting that he likes to have me get on from the right side. He always comes over to get me on the right side. His right side was his panic side in his old habits.

Would you post a video clip that shows what you are talking about exactly?

We set a goal of this week getting that horse to bow down on one knee. It's been lots of fun and he is just about there. I will try to post a video when he gets it down.

JRW

[reata]

LOL!! sorry JWR!! We are all "girls" however old we are.. I'm an OLD GIRL too!!
We had a poster on here a few years back who was JRW and he was a bloke!!! I just thought you were him, sorry!!
I will try and get somebody to video what I mean but its a bit hard when its only ME working with the ponies!!
You have done lots of good with that horse, I'm sure I would have given up long ago!!
As for the bowing down thing.. The horse really has to make a BIG change for him to put himself in that position for you. My little mare bows and she has to be in the right frame of mind to bow. When she comes up from the bow she is always soft and very mellow..
Your on the right track with this horse, I think .. He needs to make a big change in himself and trust that you will do him no harm .. You need to respect him with this.. and allow him to give you his trust and not try to make him!! Your doing good and thinking outside the square.. :)
PS..I hope your not taking offence to my comments??? None is intended!

[Mulie]

One of the things I like about the posters on this board is that it challenges me to look deeper at what I'm doing. Sometimes I think I've really got something down, but actually it's only in a superficial way or I'm missing something important. I'm just starting to work on my mule picking me up from the fence, but I'm going to look harder for her offering it to me. She's pretty protective of herself so the offering up thing would be a pretty big deal for her. I tried to watch the video you all are speaking of, but I couldn't find it on there.

[RidgeRider]

My mare is a quick study, but has a problem with patience. She learned the idea of mounting from the fence in about 4 minutes. However, her idea was she would do a fly-by at 40 mph and I would jump on and we'd be off. She never had a problem with me being on her, she just wanted to execute this rapdily and get on with things. Well, enough of that. I re-taught the exercise by not getting on until she was stock still and properly placed. I would get on and have her stand until I indicated forward motion. Much better these days, but still is impatient.

I am a 5 footer also, mature (that's over 40, well, over 45), with recurrent sciatica, so the fence, a log, a stone, a mound of dirt is essential. As a kid I had my horses lower their necks and I would "sit" on their neck and get a ride up. I also taught them to stretch like a Saddlebred, so I could hop on bareback. Or jump to hit the stirrup like a cowboy. One thing I find odd, yet encouraging is that even my problem horse is fine with the fence mount. He has a lot of fear issues from his history, but is ok with me up and on.

[red]

Hey, Mulie....you know I have a soft spot for the long ears...tho I suspect...and no criticism intended, that the Mules demand more from their "peeps".... if you are half way convinced, there is NO way you are gonna convince a good mule..you gotta be living it...this fence picking up deal, is an excellent lesson in getting to their feet, and that is all it is, controlling the feet, with a real reward...really...the reward for a well done job, is that little hippity hop your heart does, when they come and get you with that soft, and satisfied look on their faces...and you KNOW they get it.(plus, it is quite impressive to the "non-believers"...and you can say naynay nay nay naaaaaay, under your breath)...as you stroke the soft shoulder, and calmly ride away...it will be one of "your finest hours"...good on ya.

love,
red.

[FrancaV]

Some (not all of them :-)) the moment I climb up on my gate will come, even from the other side of the RP, sidle right up beside me, and stand contently and patiently while I get on. They place the saddle or their backs right under my nose. (Or my butt!! :-)) This to me is picking me up from the fence..My mare is very good at "mothering up to the fence", as Peter Campbell calls it. She comes right up parallel to the fence and stands still.

It used to be difficult to fine-tune her position without her walking off and me having to start over, but I kept at it, trying to be clear and particular without doing too much. I wouldn't get on if she wasn't in the right spot or if her hip was swung out from the fence. Now if she's off center by a step I can ask for just one step and she'll give it to me. I'm sure the difference is all about my feel because it's not just mounting - I can get everything done with much less effort now.

I used to envy those folks whose horses would stand stock still for mounting and not move off until asked. Now my own horse is like that; she will stand on a loose rein and wait and wait on me until I direct her somewhere. And that first step can be in any direction I choose. I feel sooo blessed. :)

[Mulie]

The main problem I am having with this is once she gets up to me about half the time she'll step her hindquarter away from the fence. So far I haven't actually got on her from the fence,(she's not a youngster, and she's real good to mount from the ground) because I'm thinking it would be best to have her real soft and feeling good about standing up close to it before progressing. So I send her out and get her parralel to the fence and bring her towards me one step at a time. when she's close enough I give her rubs and let her relax. It's usually that last step that would get her in position she'll step forward but also take a step out with her hindquarters. By that time of course I'm completely on her left side and can't really do any of the things I would do on the ground to move her hindquarters to the left. I think I'm pretty good about not rushing her, and it has helped alot to send her out far enough on the fence and get her set up better, so it's improved, but this last step is pretty important I would think so I'd like to get it fixed up. I never dreamed a horse would actually come across the roundpen on their own to pick you up. What a thing to shoot for!

[JRW]

Ms Mulie,
I get them to target their hindquarters.... ie. move their hindquarters to touch my outstretched hand. Then you have "towards" as well as "away" as an option.

I did this with our critters including the mule and hinny. Then I taught them to target the vacuum cleaner. The mule really likes to be shop-vac'ed. He will push up against the fence to get vac'ed when I stand on the other side (because of a short cord).

My animals are more likely to body slam me into the fence when I start climbing up to get on them. I taught the paint horse to put the white spot on her withers to my knee on the fence. She will crush me against the fence in her enthusiasm if I don't tell her to back off. I will try to post some videos....

JD is getting bowing pretty good. He just about has his knee to the ground, but I am supporting it so he can lift up again easily.

Yrs,
JRW
ps. no offence taken, gives me something to think about even if ultimately I decide you might be jumping to false conclusions..... hey, I would rather consider the conclusion and decide that it's wrong than not hear it. No worries, Amiga!

[FrancaV]

Hey, Mulie, have you ever used a flag with her? There's a cool way to get those hindquarters lining up nicely if your mule is used to a flag. You could probably get it done with a lunge whip or a stick, but the flag is much easier for the horse to see for this particular exercise. I'm in a bit of a panic getting ready for a trip but if you'd like more details I'll try to find the time to post later. Or perhaps someone else here knows what I'm talking about. Ummm ... Mike? Are you out there?? :)

[JRW]

In my experience, since mules tend to be pushy by nature.... sometimes asking the mule to come toward a cue is easier than asking them to move away from the cue.

I took three videos of me climbing fences near equines.... now I just have to find the thingy to hook the camera to the computer..... hmmmm....

Yrs,
JRW

[Mares Tales]

For what it`s worth or..... a voice from the cheap seats. ;-o

It`s not about getting the horse to do something, it`s about developing a relationship and nurturing trust. How many times have you seen people try to mount from a mounting block and just when they get the horse lined up and they are on the block, the horse moves away or starts walking off? Where do you think that horses mind is at that very moment?....with the person?.....nope, it is someplace else.

So how do you set it up so your idea becomes your horses idea? you let them search for the release....., you let them hunt, when they get into the desireable position, then that is where they find the release....the nice place. Pretty soon they will be hunting up that nice place and then looking for you to get on.......it becomes an invitation.......no one makes anybody do anything, it becomes the horses idea; they get to partake in the process and the person becomes dependable, one of the ingredients in developing trust. No matter what they do, they know that if they search that they will get a release. The person has to give the horse time when learning something and the horse should know that the person always will.

Picking you up off the fence is a lot bigger thing than just getting the horse into a position so you can get on, it`s about the mental change that takes place in the horse through this exercise. It becomes the horses responsibility to get into position to help the rider out. This attitude carries over into the ride to come. Just like when we do our groundwork, having the horse pick you up off the fence..... prepares the horse to get mentally ready and WITH the rider. It helps create an atmosphere of trust, horse and human helping eachother.....working WITH one another instead of AT one another like you see so often. It`s a brick in the foundation, it seems basic at a glance but it`s very important when you understand how the horse sees it.

My comments from the peanut gallery.

[reata]

Mares your comments are not from the peanut gallery. They are from the cashew or macadamia gallery.. They are spot on!!
Its got nothing to do with "making" the horse or mule.. Its the horse making the change. Its our feel, timing and balance that sets up the horse so he wants to help us out.. Its his idea and it feels good to him..
Yes, he may run into a little pressure while we are trying to give him the idea of what we want, and our timing and feel has to be spot on..But in the end it has to be his idea otherwise the whole thing has the wrong feel to it ..
If the hindquarters are not where ya want them make the situation just a little bit uncomfortable, the moment he gets an idea to shift his quarters in the direction that will help you out.. release.. don't be in a hurry.. let him work at it .. pretty soon he will be looking you up!!
Videos more than welcome!!! :)

[FrancaV]

I agree with Mares here. Once the horse is mentally prepared to partner up with a human, things like cues become unnecessary. I don't use cues as such; I know that lots of people use them successfully but to me they are just something that must be eventually be left behind if you want your horse to work off of feel or energy as a true partner. I'd rather just leave that step out and have my horse seeking to follow a feel from the start. Tools like flags, sticks, whips, or the popper end of a lead rope are a backup (if needed) to a request, not the request itself. But tools or cues can be useful at the stage where the horse is still trying to understand what a person is asking and/or hasn't figured out yet whether or not it's a good idea to follow that person's lead.

The exercise I mentioned earlier of having the horse line up parallel to the fence for mounting using the flag is all about that. The flag functions as a guide only. Just as (on the ground) you might ask your horse to pass between you and the fence in preparation for jobs such as trailer loading, you can ask the horse to line up between you (on the fence) and the flag (held out as kind of an archway for the horse to walk under). When he's in position you can rub him with the flag and/or your hand to make being next to you along the fence a nice place to be. Obviously you only do this if your horse already knows what flags are about, he's learned to separate what the flag's energy is saying, and whether or not the "message" is for him. (It might be for some other horse.)

If he's not quite lined up yet and you need him to step a bit forward in order to position the saddle correctly in front of you, you can stop the flag and lift the lead rope to ask for one little step at a time, releasing after each. If he doesn't understand to step forward or starts to swing his hindquarters away from the fence, you can change the feel in the flag from a rub ("this is nice, stay here") to a tiny jiggle or tap ("time to move") on the outside hind (doing as little as possible but as much as necessary), to help the horse move forward while encouraging him to remain straight along the fence. If you're consistent about making him feel comfortable at the same spot, and if you only get on when he's lined up correctly, he'll soon offer to put himself there on his own. The exercise requires his mental presence, shows him how you'd like him to be with you and helps him want to be there.

Ultimately tools and cues aren't necessary for a horse to pick you up off the fence or for any of the other things you might ask a horse to do. Anyone who has had the pleasure of watching Ray Hunt take his horse from standing on a loose rein to trotting in place on a loose rein can see that no tools or cues were used. He just "brought the life up" without giving the horse a place to go. It was the first time I'd ever seen Ray and I was totally blown away by his little "piaffe".

As for mules, IMO, good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It's just that with mules you need to be especially careful to offer the least pressure possible to start but always follow through with as much as you need to in order to make a change. Well-timed releases are essential, and don't haul on a mule! They're better than horses at hauling right back. ;) I don't think that mules are more pushy or stubborn than horses by nature but they do have a very highly-developed sense of self-preservation. That combined with being both sensitive and super smart means things need to be presented pretty much in black and white to a mule.

It's easier for a horse to exist in those grey areas - to live with a certain level of uncertainty. When you are unclear with a horse he can fill in for you. He may or may not feel good about it and if he's left confused for too long he'll find ways to let you know. But a mule will be running the other way long before that. If you're on the other end of that rope or rein while he's running it won't be fun. With a mule it either feels right or it doesn't, and if it doesn't he wants to leave. I didn't come up with this myself ... I recently heard it explained and very clearly saw it demonstrated. Past experiences (long past) with mules now make perfect sense to me!

"A mule is just like a horse only more so." -- Peter Campbell

[reata]

Thank You FrancaV.. Well Said!!! :)

[Bill I.]

What I like to use to start the picking up training is something round, I use a big truck tire. After they get good both ways with that, I use the wheel fender on my horse trailer. Its easier then a fence to stand on. I also get off on the fender, they learn that fast. Us old folks need some help gettin on and off sometimes. Bill I

[Mulie]

Lots of great stuff to think about. JRW, I'd love to see your videos if you can post those. If you have the time I'd be interested in knowing how you "target" the hindquarters to move them towards you. I'm having trouble figuring how that would be accomplished.
Franca, sounds like you know a bit about mules. I've sure found what you say to be true, I'm amazed about how light I can be with her. She can also leave the country pretty fast when things gets confusing. And like you all say I've never "made" her do anything. I hadn't used a flag with her for a couple years. When I pulled it out the other night she wanted to leave so I spent the time reintroducing it to her. At the end I asked her to come along the fence and just wanted to get her used to the flag when I was up there. She seemed clearer about lining up along the fence at the end of the lead. But she seemed more bothered by the flag when I was up there so I just brought her up to me and rubbed her til she was seeming more relaxed. Although she was positioned pretty good actually, I didn't even worry about trying to move her because I just wanted her more comfortable.
I do believe the peanut gallery is right about this being more important than just picking you up. I sort of think everything we do is more important than just the small act we are trying to accomplish at the time. I've spent years kind of blind to that fact, just trying to accomplish a particular move but not thinking about the way in which it is done or accepted by the horse. I managed to get by that way through the grace of some really good horses. I figured the ones I had trouble with were just knotheads. Guess I was the knothead. But I'm trying to learn a better way, thanks for your help.

[JRW]

Here is a link to a video of me and my filly, Paisley. It shows moving hips to me first, then away from me.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZzJXuh5sDF0

You teach it with positive reinforcement like clicker training. Once it is a reflexive pattern, it doesn't matter if you taught it by pressure/release or positive reinforcement. If you want specific instructions on it, then start another thread on targeting hips to hand.

Still looking for that darn camera cable...... arghhh!
Yrs,
JRW

[Excess]

That's a great video JRW....I need to work on Speedster to do that. He doesn't have that much life in him though. I added you as a friend on youtube btw....

[Weebonilass]

That's a great video JRW....I need to work on Speedster to do that. He doesn't have that much life in him though. I added you as a friend on youtube btw....


I agree with Excess. My guy moves away well, but getting him to me like that... not yet, hadn't even thought of it... need to think more :)

I'm no help with creating the pickup as I said before. My gelding has offered it to me after we spent a year and a half on the ground. His way of telling me, he was ready to be ridden again. At least by me.

[reata]

Well I'm gunna be BLUNT again!!! I watched the video and to me its just a trick.. There is no feel and the horse is only moving to get his tit-bit..
I personally do not want my horse to perform like this.. Hes moving like a trained monkey!!!
I'm sorry, but I think some of you guys are missing the point completely.
Its not about making the horse or how trained he is .. or what we can get him to do and how we do it ..and its not about feeding rewards or tricks!!!
Its the CHANGE in the horse. Its how he feels on the inside. Its him turning loose.. Letting down the barriers and softening the braces.. Its his mental attitude to us .. its him wanting to help us out.
Its us understanding the horse and seeing his point of view. Its us suggesting something to the horse and it becoming his idea..
Its the whole BIG picture!!!
I really don't want to offend anybody here, but I feel the purpose of this BB and the EH Magazine is to discuss horsemanship with a slant towards the teachings of Tom and Ray.
"Notice the smallest change and the slightest try and reward him".
"Let your idea become the horses idea".
"You're not working on the horse, your working on yourself".
:eek:

[Mulie]

So I've heard this discussion before, here and from others as well. I'm just a person trying to learn and not very articulate. Is it possible to describe how the video would have looked different if the horse and trainer would be operating with feel? I can think of occassional times when I was riding and did a particular manuever and felt pretty good about it like my mule had softened up and I felt we were together and my trainer friend said, "she wasn't really trying there". Was I wrong? Was she wrong? Then I start thinking more about how it might "look" to someone else and less about how it "feels" to me. Is it subjective? I have seen some people work their horses and the horse does everything "right" but there is some vague uneasy feeling I get. I might think to myself is it that they lack "feel"? But I'm just starting to think in these terms so I can't make those judgements about someone else. Sometimes it's painfully obvious there's no feel going on and things are just falling apart and probably everyone would agree on it. Other times when things are going "right" it seems like it would be harder to say, and maybe just the horse and rider themselves could say. Don't know. Just musing on it.

[JRW]

Reata,
You say my horse is just doing a trick not really wanting to pick me up from the fence. I challenge you to provide a video of your horse showing evidence that it wants for its self to come up and get you in such a way that it can't be called a trick by your definition. Right now, from this side of the planet, it sounds like you have an idealized vision of the horse/human relationship. I would be very impressed if you could show that what you are claiming is true.

It also sounds like you are interpreting "Just What Works" to mean limited to a certain set of practices. Hunt and Dorrance fall into the category of "What Works" but that's not the sum total, is it? If Emily says we can't discuss other things that seem to work (or not work), then I will just go away and not bother you again. I think Emily will not vote for limits.

Even if my horse picks me up "as a trick", what is the point of berating me or my animals or my training practices? You would have more impact and credibility if you showed how it should be done according to your own criteria.

From this side of the planet, this is how it feels --- Reata looked at the clip of my mustang and decided it was not true harmony. Reata apparently thought it was important enough to tell me I was all messed up. I don't know what he/she has against me but clearly, positive reinforcement for a good try is not the intent of the message. Perhaps I am making her/him feel threatened? Maybe that was not your intent, Reata, maybe I misunderstand, but that is how it feels.

Now imagine for a minute that instead you had written something to this effect: "That's an interesting clip and the horse is obviously calmer than when you started out, but here is something that might make it work even better for you...... " That would certain be a less rude/blunt way to make your point.

I started experimenting with positive reinforcement about 18 months ago because I had an equine that had very extreme problems. I think it is a useful tool in toolbox. It doesn't get rid of the need for pressure/release training. It doesn't make it less necessary to understand the horse psyche and behaviors related to herd dynamics. It doesn't change the need to stay totally attuned to the horses focus. Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, no matter what the names are attached to the style.

My newest mustang, Cisco, is one snorty flighty guy. This spring I got into shop-vac'ing all the animals. Clay West, a Texas cowboy who grew up on a ranch where a Ray Hunt clinic was a regular event, was here and bet me that I couldn't shop-vac that mustang. Well, it took two sessions and the snorty bronc was at liberty on a two acre lot, standing there letting the vac suck out his dandruff. Clay was impressed, but still not ready to adopt positive reinforcement into his tool box. That's okay, he doesn't want to shop vac his horse, if he had a horse, which he does not. He starts colts out for ranches around the country.

I've just started working Cisco from the fence. He is going to be a tough job on this, although I have him to where if I hold up the saddle, he puts his withers under it. I think I can get him to come to the fence at liberty, but he has such a fear of rope that if I have him on a lead rope, the rope becomes the focus. I have worked at desensitizing with rope so much that he has a love/hate relationship with rope.... ropes are big mojo for him. He sleeps with his neck against the highline rope when I have him loose in the bosque.

I need Cisco to come up to the fence so I can start getting on him. He would have no concept of coming to get me so he could take me for a ride since he isn't broke to ride, but at 16 hands I need the fence to get my old body onto his back. If you want to come to NM and show me how it should be done... hey.... come on up. I'll video it.

Yrs,
JRW

[Mulie]

I have another question. What is the difference between doing something from a "cue" versus "feel"? It seems like feel would just be a cue that has been distilled down to something imperceptable to anyone but the horse and rider involved. Maybe I'm missing something here.

[Mares Tales]

Bulletin Board Expert Mares Tales reporting........

A cue is conditioned response to a signal. The horse can choose to ignore the signal or not. The cue might work with the horses nature or not. I could teach my horse to canter on the right lead if I touched my nose with my hand.....that would be a cue to canter on the right lead. I might say "left" to ask my horse to canter on the left lead. The horse might say....."well maybe not today because right now I see something else that interests me more over here." The person would have to figure out some way to get the horses attention back to get them so that they could respond to the cue. Cues can be followed at the discretion of the horse.

An "aid" is a signal for the horse to do something with the riders knowledge of the horses body and its movement. An example of an aid for teaching the horse to pick up the right lead canter could be to slide the riders left leg back to the sensitive "box" towards the horses left flank while the horses left hind leg is beginning to bear weight.......the horses NATURAL inclination would be to sit a little on that left hind and push off with a little more energy and elevate its forehand so as to jump up slightly to the right and pick up the right lead. As soon as the horse canters true, the rider ceases to aid. It is more difficult for the horse to ignore an aid than a cue because an aid makes sense to the horse because the person is working WITH the horses body and movement through the riders own body and movement.

Treat rewards can be the inspiration for a response too.....the horse looking to get something out of it so it does what it is asked, the person is important as long as they give the horse the food reward. Run out of treats and the horses interest fades. The focus is not the person but the food reward. Horses by nature lose respect for those that reward with food.......there is a HUGE difference between GIVING the food reward and the horse thinking he is TAKING it. Considering the nature of horses, horses who feel they are TAKING food from another automatically become higher up on the pecking order. There is a fine line, even if your horse isn`t knocking you over, to actually KNOW if your horse is TAKING the food reward or if you are GIVING it. Such an example would be; the time between when the horse finishes the desireable act and getting his reward becomes smaller and smaller until the horse is actually looking for the reward before the person can give it to them and then the horse sees it in his mind as TAKING it. Regardless, the focus is NOT where the person would ideally want it and that is with THEM as the leader. The SRS rewards with food, Pops Konyot always kept a carpenters apron around his waist, full of sugar cubes as a reward for his horses, but, these people understood the difference between the person giving and the horse taking. And the horses knew that they knew!

Working with "feel".......the horse knows that the person understands the horses nature because the person is operating from where a horse is at mentally. Ideas start with the brain. (THINKING, breathing, DECISION MAKING animal..RH) The horse responds to the person because the horse has RESPECT for the person and is willing to follow their judgement. The person is the focus of the horses attention, feels good about being with the person and has trust in them.
The person is working WITH the nature of the horse so he earns the horses respect. "Feel" can vary from horse to horse because every horse has its own personality and sensitivity and past experiences and genetic makeup........ but horses have a list of characteristics unique to quadraped herbivores, and even more unique to the species equine. A horseperson with "feel' understands these characteristics but yet treats each horse as an individual........they have learned to "come from where the horse is at" as Tom Dorrance said. FEEL encompases correct timing, timing includes "reward" and "release", "pressure and release", "approach and retreat".....they are all one and the same but with the emphasis on FEEL. (I have observed people with good timing who did not have FEEL and their movements were mechanical, they only get so far with the horses but THATS another thread ;-0). The person allows the horse to be what it is.......a horse. A true horseman with feel does not treat the horse as a dog, another person, or a child etc and because that would never be considered, they work within the horses true nature. The horse knows that they KNOW.

"What I am trying to teach you, most people don`t even know exists", Ray Hunt

If you have FEEL working for you, you will not have a need for food rewards. You find out pretty quickly how ineffective cues can be when things get lively and you have to compete for your horses attention so that a cue can be followed. If you have "feel" your horse will want to do what you want it to do because it has RESPECT for you and ideally your idea will become the horses idea, two minds working as one. If you lose the horses attention, you will understand how to get it back but the horse is more likely to stay with you in the first place because it WANTS to. You reach something inside the horse from something inside of you...........that.......at least to me is the most complete form of a partnership. There are not so many questions and doubts for the horse, the horse ceases to doubt the judgement of the person, just like horses follow the herd mare without worry. YOU are the focus of your horses attention, it is not the conditioned response or a food reward that motivates them, it is your presence and intent and the good feelings you give your horse about himself. Tom called this "suredness", I have heard it refered to as OKness too. Confidence and trust are the result.

When discussing how this applies to picking up off the fence....... at first the horse moves towards the release that the human will provide for it to show the horse that is the desired response but all the while the humans idea is becoming the horses idea and the human becomes the focus of the horses attention. The horses begin to decide for themselves that the human getting on is a good idea. The look that the horses give back to you when they invite you on is unmistakable to someone looking for it. To me, it can only be described as an "invitation". Now who wouldn`t want THAT at the start of every ride?

P.S.....this is exhausting to try and put into words. My words fall short.

[Mulie]

Wow, Mares, you're good. That was clear enough even for me. Thanks for taking the time to write that all out.

[FrancaV]

You teach it with positive reinforcement like clicker training. Once it is a reflexive pattern, it doesn't matter if you taught it by pressure/release or positive reinforcement.I agree that what you're showing in the video is a reflexive pattern. This is what you get when you teach tricks, and if that's all you want, you're right - it doesn't matter how you get there.

I can't speak for anyone else, but reata was pretty clear she wants more out of her relationship with her horse and so do I. Once the idea of giving to pressure makes sense to the horse, the horse is in control of releasing the pressure on his own. He will then try to find that "comfort zone" or "sweet spot" or whatever you want to call it. I don't know how to put this into words exactly ... but if you always offer the smallest suggestion first ... once the horse learns how to find that comfortable spot he figures out that when he follows your lead he stays in the "sweet spot" and stays out of trouble. He associates that comfort with you and begins to look to you for guidance. Then he follows you because he wants to and chooses to, not out of reflex or for a treat. The farther along this amazing partnership path you go, the fewer details have to be taught at all. The horse will simply follow your feel, on the ground or in the saddle, wherever you go and whatever you do. That's a "willing partnership" and I don't want to settle for anything less. :) I hope that makes some sort of sense ... I've just spent the past day and a half getting from California to France - slept a bit on the plane and had an hour nap on arrival at the hotel but haven't been to bed yet so there's no telling what sort of gibberish I might be typing, LOL!

[FrancaV]

Well, geez - wish I'd seen this before I struggled through my post, LOL. Thanks, Mares, that was incredibly well described. I can go to sleep now. :)

[FrancaV]

I can think of occasional times when I was riding and did a particular maneuver and felt pretty good about it like my mule had softened up and I felt we were together and my trainer friend said, "she wasn't really trying there". Was I wrong? Was she wrong? Then I start thinking more about how it might "look" to someone else and less about how it "feels" to me. Is it subjective? I have seen some people work their horses and the horse does everything "right" but there is some vague uneasy feeling I get. I might think to myself is it that they lack "feel"? But I'm just starting to think in these terms so I can't make those judgements about someone else. Sometimes it's painfully obvious there's no feel going on and things are just falling apart and probably everyone would agree on it. Other times when things are going "right" it seems like it would be harder to say, and maybe just the horse and rider themselves could say. Don't know. Just musing on it.I wanted to be a good forum user and trim this quote down some more but it was such a good question that I've left most of it. To me your question tells me you're heading in the right direction even if you feel like you're new to this path.

I think if the person on the ground knows how to read a horse - Ray Hunt, certainly, and plenty of other people with less familiar names - then it's not subjective. Someone with Ray's skill can tell whether or not there's any "feel" going on between horse and rider because the horse doesn't lie. However, if the person on the ground is skilled at judging whether or not a maneuver was performed correctly on a superficial level, that person could be wrong about whether or not the horse was trying. It's not about who's in the saddle and who's on the ground. The one who knows is the one who can tell how the equine really feels at any given moment. You may have been correct about your mule, and your trainer friend might have been wrong if she was actually looking for correctness of the maneuver (she could have made a more precise pattern, for example) rather than how soft and fluid your mule felt while performing it.

Your musings are good. :) Keep on asking the questions - when you stop wondering about things that's when it's time to reevaluate what you're doing and where you're going!

[JRW]

I followed my own advice and left the rope out of the corral for Cisco's training. He was bringing his withers and hips around to me in only a few minutes. Right now it's only for scratches and rubs, but he's getting the idea quickly and I will be able to add back the leadrope in a time or two.

One of my friends that is a dolphin trainer says that some animals get addicted to adrenalin/fear. I think my two difficult animals probably have some level of that going on. You cannot desensitize enough. It has taken me 6 months of training for calm down behaviors and I am just barely starting to be able to up the pressure on this guy without him falling to pieces in a pinch. By "up the pressure", I am talking about things like moving a rope in a way he is not expecting. He will brace himself and put up with me tossing the rope over him, but it's not a real acceptance. On the good side, it's finally not jump-over-the-corral-fence and run-over-the-top-of-me. So now I can start giving him some level of pressure/release training.

I had a friend help me the other day with this. I was asking Cisco to ground tie to a rubber mat. We had it in the stall. He had learned by positive reinforcement to get on the mat. I stationed my friend in the corner with two lunge whips. If Cisco was off the mat, she was to wave them around. He didn't take too long before he was acting like he was on 3rd base while the 3rd basemen was holding the ball -- one foot was glued to the mat. The next day I did the same thing but using a rope instead of the whips. I think he started to get confidence in his ability to control his world by following directions from the human.

Sorry to say that the videos she took didn't turn out at all.
Yrs,
JRW